Re: Damper setting

Maintenance, accessories, operation. Anything to do with making your erg work.

Re: Damper setting

Postby scott.spears » February 4th, 2013, 7:48 pm

Using the Concept2 machine at my local LA Fitness and don't know what setting or purpose of the damper is for. I see it is 1 to 10 and it's always set at 10 so that's what I've been doing. Any advice and/or information would be appreciated. Thank you.
Scott
49 yrs, 6' 2", 190 lbs
2k (7:48) 5k (20:43) :30 (7010)
scott.spears
Paddler
 
Posts: 8
Joined: March 10th, 2009, 5:37 pm
Location: Mill Creek, WA

Re: Damper setting

Postby Bob S. » February 4th, 2013, 8:47 pm

UK drag factor site:

http://concept2.co.uk/training/guide/damper_lever

(Note that there is one error there. The lowest damper setting is not 1, it can be moved to one mark below that to an unlabelled zero.)

Viewing Drag Factor:

http://www.concept2.com/service/monitor ... rag-factor

Another drag factor page:

http://indoorance.com/2012/07/16/settin ... w-machine/

Additional information: From C2?

Recommended Drag Factor Settings
Good rowing technique is about speed of application of power and not just brute strength.
The table below illustrates the settings recommended by the Amateur Rowing Association and used by Great Britain's international rowing teams for testing and training.

Recommended Drag Factors
User Drag Factor
J11/12 beginner 95-105 approx
J12/13 105-115
J13/14 110-120
J14/15 115-125
Junior Women 125-135
Junior Men 130-140
Lightweight women performance athletes 125
Heavyweight women performance athletes 130
Lightweight men performance athletes 135
Heavyweight men performance athletes 140


International rowers train and test with the drag factor setting at a level of resistance that enables them to replicate their rhythm and rate from the water.

My own take on it:

The drag factor is not your typical resistance level. There is some effect on the resistance feel, but it is not at all like increasing the load on a weightlifting rack. The resistance on an erg depends on how hard the handle is pulled, not on how fast it slows down. That is the real effect of the drag - it effects the slowing down of the wheel. Even if the drag factor is at its maximum, you can still make the wheel spin with a very light pull - which is not the case with the usual resistance machines. With a lot of relatively light pulls at a high rate, a decent pace can be maintained. This is not the case with a weight rack.

Another way to look at it is that you determine the resistance by the amount of force that you apply to the handle. That determines how much the wheel accelerates. The drag factor determines how much the wheel decelerates during the recovery. It is also effects the drive in that it is counteracting the force that force that you apply, so a high drag will reduce that amount of wheel acceleration that you get from any specific force. Sure that is a resistance effect, but, to me, it is misleading to that term for it, since it is a very different effect from what it means in the term "resistance training." Mainly because it obscures the fact that the real level of resistance depends on the force that you, yourself, apply. Whatever the damper setting, the wheel will move with even a very light pull on the handle. How far will you lift a 100kg weight if you apply only 90kg of force to lift it?

Bob S.
User avatar
Bob S.
Half Marathon Poster
 
Posts: 3873
Joined: March 16th, 2006, 12:00 pm
Location: Owens Valley, California

Re: Damper setting

Postby Ergmeister » February 4th, 2013, 9:45 pm

Short answer: http://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/t ... etting-101

Longer answer:
Drag factor is a measure of fan load. The Performance Monitor self-calibrates by recalculating the drag factor on every stroke, so you get a true measure of your effort regardless of the damper setting or changing conditions. You can adjust the drag factor by moving the damper lever on the right side of the flywheel. To view drag factor on the PM: On the Main Menu, select "More Options" -> Select "Display Drag Factor"-> Begin rowing and PM will display the drag factor after a few seconds. You can play with the damper on the side of the fan cage to see what's a comfortable number for you. Once you establish what you like and want, you then can set any C2 rower up to that factor when you row it as long as it has the ability to reach your desired setting at settings you'd expect it to be higher. So if you set the damper to 4.5 on your rower at home, it will not be the same drag factor on other rowers 90% of the time.

A brand new indoor rower will have a drag factor of about 90–100 at a damper setting of 1 and about 210–220 at a damper setting of 10. After the bungees get some miles on them, and, when the handle is always stowed in the holder on the frame rail (and not left fully retracted in the slot), and the rower is plugged with dust and lint, the drag factor will drop significantly.

As you adjust the damper setting, you are opening up the airflow and allowing more air to exit the cage with each increase in the damper. The more air that flows through the more resistance and harder it is to pull or load the fan.

Most gyms that I see, and, Cross-Fit in particular tend to set it at 10 almost exclusively because their use of a rower is a 500 meter sprint typically and the higher the drag factor they believe the faster they can complete their 500 meter sprint.

It's a personal preference but for sure the older and more used the rower, the harder to get high drag factors with the damper set to 10.
User avatar
Ergmeister
500m Poster
 
Posts: 99
Joined: February 28th, 2012, 9:59 am
Location: Sheldonville, MA

Re: Damper setting

Postby scott.spears » February 5th, 2013, 4:00 pm

Bob and Ergmeister: Thank you for the detailed replies. Very helpful! I'm going to move from 10 to 5 and see how that feels. I'm slowly returning to rowing after a long absence and want to do it right.
Scott
49 yrs, 6' 2", 190 lbs
2k (7:48) 5k (20:43) :30 (7010)
scott.spears
Paddler
 
Posts: 8
Joined: March 10th, 2009, 5:37 pm
Location: Mill Creek, WA

Re: Damper setting

Postby c2jonw » February 5th, 2013, 4:50 pm

A brand new indoor rower will have a drag factor of about 90–100 at a damper setting of 1 and about 210–220 at a damper setting of 10. After the bungees get some miles on them, and, when the handle is always stowed in the holder on the frame rail (and not left fully retracted in the slot), and the rower is plugged with dust and lint, the drag factor will drop significantly.


Just to clear up some misinformation in the above statement. Drag Factor is a numerical representation of the rate of deceleration of the flywheel, and while lint in the flywheel cover can significantly change the drag factor, bungee tension does not. C2JonW
63 year old living in Waterbury Center, Vermont, USA
Concept2 employee since 1980!
User avatar
c2jonw
2k Poster
 
Posts: 345
Joined: April 3rd, 2006, 1:08 pm

Re: Damper setting

Postby Yankeerunner » February 5th, 2013, 5:42 pm

c2jonw wrote:
A brand new indoor rower will have a drag factor of about 90–100 at a damper setting of 1 and about 210–220 at a damper setting of 10. After the bungees get some miles on them, and, when the handle is always stowed in the holder on the frame rail (and not left fully retracted in the slot), and the rower is plugged with dust and lint, the drag factor will drop significantly.


Just to clear up some misinformation in the above statement. Drag Factor is a numerical representation of the rate of deceleration of the flywheel, and while lint in the flywheel cover can significantly change the drag factor, bungee tension does not. C2JonW


Jon, on a new machine about how many pounds of pressure are needed to pull the bungee out? I'm hoping to get a hand-held spring scale and use it on my old machine to try to tighten the bungees to a similar tension. Thanks.
User avatar
Yankeerunner
6k Poster
 
Posts: 810
Joined: March 16th, 2006, 12:17 pm
Location: West Newbury, MA

Re: Damper setting

Postby Citroen » February 6th, 2013, 3:46 am

Yankeerunner wrote:
c2jonw wrote:
A brand new indoor rower will have a drag factor of about 90–100 at a damper setting of 1 and about 210–220 at a damper setting of 10. After the bungees get some miles on them, and, when the handle is always stowed in the holder on the frame rail (and not left fully retracted in the slot), and the rower is plugged with dust and lint, the drag factor will drop significantly.


Just to clear up some misinformation in the above statement. Drag Factor is a numerical representation of the rate of deceleration of the flywheel, and while lint in the flywheel cover can significantly change the drag factor, bungee tension does not. C2JonW


Jon, on a new machine about how many pounds of pressure are needed to pull the bungee out? I'm hoping to get a hand-held spring scale and use it on my old machine to try to tighten the bungees to a similar tension. Thanks.


six to eight pounds.
User avatar
Citroen
SpamTeam
 
Posts: 3552
Joined: March 16th, 2006, 3:28 pm
Location: Basingstoke, UK

Re: Damper setting

Postby c2jonw » February 6th, 2013, 2:47 pm

Jon, on a new machine about how many pounds of pressure are needed to pull the bungee out? I'm hoping to get a hand-held spring scale and use it on my old machine to try to tighten the bungees to a similar tension. Thanks.


six to eight is right- six at the catch and it will increase to around eight at the finish for a C, D and E. A and B had a wider difference between the catch and finish- more like 6 at the catch to 10 or more at the finish. Keep in mind the purpose of the bungee is simply to return the handle, chain and related parts to the catch position in a smooth manner. The slower and smoother your recovery is the lighter the bungee tension needed.

C2JonW
63 year old living in Waterbury Center, Vermont, USA
Concept2 employee since 1980!
User avatar
c2jonw
2k Poster
 
Posts: 345
Joined: April 3rd, 2006, 1:08 pm

Re: Damper setting

Postby Yankeerunner » February 7th, 2013, 1:58 pm

Thanks
User avatar
Yankeerunner
6k Poster
 
Posts: 810
Joined: March 16th, 2006, 12:17 pm
Location: West Newbury, MA

Re: Damper setting

Postby COMike » December 3rd, 2014, 4:26 pm

I apologize in advance.....

My wife and I just got our C2 MD PM5 and after the setup and a few rows, we have a DF at 85....level three on the damper.

Upon calling C2....it was stated the we should NOT worry about DF for the time being.

We live at 7500' so the DF's are not comparable to "people at sea level".......

Being an aviator, I know the principles but just how to you compare DF between altitudes when determining when the C2 needs to be cleaned/serviced......

My wife is a cyclist so I would love to drill down for her races.....

Mike :)


PS....sorry for the resurrection of this topic.
User avatar
COMike
Paddler
 
Posts: 18
Joined: November 26th, 2014, 4:52 pm
Location: Colorado

Re: Damper setting

Postby Bob S. » December 3rd, 2014, 4:34 pm

If the DF is the same, it should feel the same, whatever the altitude. The only difference is that damper settings will not be the same.

Bob S.
User avatar
Bob S.
Half Marathon Poster
 
Posts: 3873
Joined: March 16th, 2006, 12:00 pm
Location: Owens Valley, California

Re: Damper setting

Postby c2jonw » December 3rd, 2014, 4:51 pm

Mike,
Drag factor is a numerical value for the speed of deceleration of the flywheel and it is being recalculated on every stroke. You should know what DF value you are comfortable using on your machine in case you go to a race or health club and wish to have the machine feel like your home machine. On a new machine at sea level the drag factor will range from about 80 at 1 to over 200 at 10. All other things being equal, if that machine is moved to 7500' it will have a lower drag factor range- just like yours. Drag factor is also effected by temperature and significant dust buildup in the flywheel cover.
As long as you set machines up with the same drag factor they will feel the same, and regardless of drag factor you scores will always be comparable. Of course the handicap you will have is the lack of oxygen at 7500'.
More info on drag factor on our web site here: http://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/t ... etting-101
I'd be interested in an aviators take on this.......C2JonW
63 year old living in Waterbury Center, Vermont, USA
Concept2 employee since 1980!
User avatar
c2jonw
2k Poster
 
Posts: 345
Joined: April 3rd, 2006, 1:08 pm

Re: Damper setting

Postby COMike » December 3rd, 2014, 4:52 pm

Bob S. wrote:If the DF is the same, it should feel the same, whatever the altitude. The only difference is that damper settings will not be the same.

Bob S.



So the adjustment on the "damper setting" should equate to similar Drag Factors?

While I am new to the C2 rower....my wife has to comment....but DFs at our altitude do not correspond to her observations at sea level.

I suppos)e we do not understand DF as it has been stated here and on some posts she has clued me into.


I think we might be talking about "apples and oranges".....



Let me put forth a baseline.......


Someone rowing at sea level and someone at our alt (7500')

1. Drag factors WILL DIFFER
2. Higher altitudes (should require an increase Damper settings) would make her/me to achieve the same workout.
3. When would we need to talk to C2 to see if the C2 CD would require adjustments?

I apologize in advance but my wife needs to track her efforts on the C2 for improving her times on the bike.

Mike :)
User avatar
COMike
Paddler
 
Posts: 18
Joined: November 26th, 2014, 4:52 pm
Location: Colorado

Re: Damper setting

Postby hjs » December 3rd, 2014, 5:22 pm

Dragfactor is a matter of air resistance, at higher altitude you need more airflow to get the same amount of air, so the fan should be higher (more open).
Min and max drag at altitude are both lower due to this.
2k pb 6.14.7 sb no 2k yet this season
http://www.fitvandaag.com
User avatar
hjs
Half Marathon Poster
 
Posts: 3028
Joined: March 16th, 2006, 3:18 pm

Re: Damper setting

Postby COMike » December 3rd, 2014, 5:29 pm

hjs wrote:Dragfactor is a matter of air resistance, at higher altitude you need more airflow to get the same amount of air, so the fan should be higher (more open).
Min and max drag at altitude are both lower due to this.


So a question.....


Should we have separate setting and data?

When you stated .... "more airflow to get the same..."

We should place the damper setting appropriate to each of us? Essentially not the same setting.
User avatar
COMike
Paddler
 
Posts: 18
Joined: November 26th, 2014, 4:52 pm
Location: Colorado

Next

Return to Indoor Rowers

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests