PM5 Problems

[raotor]

Hello,

I wanted to post up my recent experiences with the PM5 to find out if others have come across the varied issues I have in the very short time I've been using one.

I posted here a short while back describing the error code produced when I tried to save a just row session. Alas, that was not the extent of the problems I've had with the new monitor. I have my own machine with PM4 at home but am a member of a gym which as of January 9th received a brand new Model D with PM5. As I'm often at the gym doing other things I sometimes row a few kilometres to warm up or just get some extra rowing in as needed. Anyway, my first post on the matter of the error code was as a result of my very first use of the new PM. To be frank, I was not impressed at this turn of events but faced even more issues when I next visited the gym.

My next visit saw me "lose" a workout just row session as it did not appear on the USB stick. I trawled through the workouts in memory on the day in question and spotted several candidates. No time of day is given when searching workouts which I cannot understand why as this would help locate rows but I hedged my bets and tried moving over about 6 that might be mine. I couldn't tell for sure until I saw the time of day once uploaded. After moving the fourth workout from memory to the USB stick the PM threw up a long error code which was two series of 4 or 5 digit numbers separated with a dash I think. The PM then hung and pressing the buttons required to return to the main menu or continue after an error failed to respond. Eventually the PM responded.

The next time I sat down on the new erg I was greeted with a "Replace battery soon" message. Huh? I mused, this machine was brand new on the 9th of January and it was then the 27th. less than 3 weeks and the PM was low on power? I checked the odometer, just under 500K on the clock. The battery status read 20% but seemed to fluctuate and go as low as 5%.

I would unplug my USB stick and the power would jump as high as 85% and then 64%. Plug in the USB stick once more and this seemed to drain the PM of juice and the battery level dropped again. Even without the stick inserted the PM would still report "Replace battery soon" message.

I plugged in my stick once more and doing so appeared to crash the PM again with a error code I'd seen before but cannot recall I'm afraid. Much fiddling and the PM eventually recovered to the main menu. I re-inserted the stick and all seemed fine. I removed it again to make sure the PM had indeed recognized it and re-inserted it again and this time it said something like "USB stick overload".

I should point out at this point that the memory stick in question had functioned without issue a few days earlier and was formatted correctly as per the C2 user setup initialization process.

After getting the PM to recover once more I gave up. The following day I tried again and no issues were reported when I inserted my memory stick and my lifetime metres were shown as expected. I rowed a just row session and pressed the MENU button to commit this workout to the stick. I watched the screen and after a moment the main menu returned and so all appeared fine. Upon returning home and attempting to retrieve this workout the C2 Utility v6.83 reported an error seemingly stating that a file was missing and my workout had been evidentially lost.

I have now given up using the gym erg for anything now unless I mentally take note of the duration and metres rowed and input the data manually into my online log book.

It seems to me that the power management is rather poor which leads to multiple errors and failures when dealing with the USB memory stick. I was shocked to see just how quickly the batteries were drained and it may be that typical gym usage patterns are particularly detrimental to the PM5's power usage profile - I'm not sure. However, I hope my experiences are unique and I've just been unlucky with a "bad apple" but if not then this is really quite shockingly bad.

The current firmware version installed is 15 and I know there is a version 16 available. However, unless the sorts of issues I've experienced are explicitly stated as being fixed in V16, I see no current remedy to the issues presented above. Plus, if the battery life is going to be so poor as to require a fresh set every month in a gym environment then there might be gym managers not best pleased with the increased expense attributed to the new monitors as well as the reliability problems as a result of low power.

[Hollywood_Kuma]

v17 of the firmware for the PM5 has just been released.

I've also had a few niggles, but I think the guys in Vermont have now got a good handle of the issues, and gremlins have been largely squashed.

Hopefully v17 will resolve the problems you describe.

[raotor]

v17 of the firmware for the PM5 has just been released.

I've also had a few niggles, but I think the guys in Vermont have now got a good handle of the issues, and gremlins have been largely squashed.

Hopefully v17 will resolve the problems you describe.

Do you know if I can safely update the firmware to v17 using the USB stick now?

[Hollywood_Kuma]

Hi Raotor,

Based on my experience, no, you have use a PC (or a Mac).

I tried updating by USB stick (from firmware v16 to v17) in order to answer your question. I had the error codes 1862, 1864 and, my personal favourite, error 76: "EEPROM Manufacturing Error".

When I used my laptop to do the update (Windows 7, x64, running the latest C2 Utility v6.83) the firmware update process was, however, seamless.

As a result, I've come to the conclusion that trying to update the firmware via a USB stick is simply a bad idea, and I won't attempt to do this again.

I wonder if we need (or ever really needed) the functionality to update from a USB stick anyway. I don't recall anyone ever asking for this in the forums. OK, it's marginally more convenient to use a USB stick than it is to connect a USB cable and use a laptop, but the latter procedure isn't exactly onerous, and firmware updates shouldn't need to be done that often in any case. Given that we're onto v17 of the firmware, and the USB flash update still sucks, perhaps it's time for C2 to simply remove this functionality, and declare that updates to the firmware should be done via a PC (or Mac), in the same way that it was done in the good old days. For commercial operators, such as gyms, this would also avoid the problem of users potentially "bricking" the monitors. If I were managing a gym, I would be very unhappy that the users were updating the firmware without asking me simply by plugging in the same USB stick that they use to store their workouts. The fact that the firmware updates happen with no intervention other than a single monitor button press (i.e., new firmware is downloaded automatically to a user's USB stick via the C2 utility) invites users to do a USB stick update, even though we know that this process is unreliable.

So, I suggest the development team seriously considers just removing the USB stick firmware update functionality, and a lot of grief (for C2, erg users, and commercial operators) would simply disappear.

With all that said, I'm pleased to say that version 17 of the firmware itself seems fine - everything works, past workouts were not lost as a result of the update, and the connection to ErgData on my iPhone is solid.

Hope this is of help.

[Citroen]

I want the USB stick option to stay and to work. If my gym gets PM5s then I can update the firmware without having to take a laptop & usb cable in. I'm the only person who bothers with a logcard on the current machines.

[Hollywood_Kuma]

@Citroen,

Fair enough, I just wanted to canvass opinion a little. Clearly there are users who like this functionality.

C2 are in any case, apparently, still committed to the firmware update over USB functionality. v18 of the firmware is going to be another advance over the current v17, with the current firmware fixing quite a few issues.

Personally I'm going to continue to update by PC for the time being, as it seems to be more reliable. The firmware, and consequently the PM5, are improving, and I have the impression that C2 are working hard to fix the various and few remaining bugs in the new monitor.

[ChrisPBacon]

I have done all my updates (16, 16 betas, 17) with the USB stick (not the C2 one) without problems.

[GnuUser]

Has there been any more information on this topic in the past year?

I'm experiencing the exact same problems as the original poster... battery warning messages, crashing, data loss, failure to recognize insertion of USB drive, etc., to the point where I've just given up using the thing. There are 4 Concept2 machines at my gym, and I can only get them to properly use my USB drive maybe 15% of the time. I've previously lost a couple of weeks of data because the PM5 crashed while writing to the USB drive, and lost a single workout yesterday for the same reason. This is the least reliable data storage system I've ever used in my entire life.

I've got a PM4 at home, and that system has never once crashed on my either at home or at the gym.

[raotor]

I suspect like most gyms that the firmware installed on the PM5 equipped ergs they have is way out of date. I tried to get my gym to update the firmware not wanting to do it myself due to the unstable nature of the devices but gave up in the end and simply stopped using their machines and got one of my own with a PM4. I believe the firmware version on those machines was v15 or 16 and the last time I looked the current PM5 firmware was already at v20. Perhaps the number of rapid firmware releases in the first year of the PM5's release is an indicator of the shockingly poor state of the PM5's firmware - certainly in its initial first few incarnations.

I cannot say what the current state of firmware is like in terms of addressing the various issues I experienced over a year ago and I can only hope that all the problems I encountered are now fixed but I suspect from a PM5 user I know that is fairly up to date on their firmware that there are still some data storage bugs evident.

If you have a PM4 based machine at home then I would suggest that you simply do as I did and stop using the gym ergs. This will save you a lot of frustration and hair pulling!

It would be interesting to learn if users of the latest available PM5 firmware are experiencing any of the issues covered here.

[Carl Watts]

Basically don't do just rows, set-up a set distance or a set time. The PM3 and PM4 don't like just rows either and failed to put them in memory at the finish. In the 5 years of rowing I have never lost a set distance or a set time row. Just rows are just for people at the gym who want to pull the handle and do a warm up or are just playing on the rower. If you expect a result you want to save, then don't use the just row function.

The PM4 is a great monitor, put a logcard in it, get the latest firmware for it and you will not have any problems.

[GnuUser]

I emailed Concept2 (in the USA) about the problem, and the problem seems to stem from 1) USB power usage requirements vary widely, and 2) low batteries in the rowers. Here is their complete response:

Thanks for the feedback. We are seeing this issue with a lot of our users. The problem is USB flash drives come in many shapes, sizes, and interfaces.
Not all are created equal in many ways. Here are Concept2’s recommendations:
• Try to buy the smallest capacity USB 2.0 flash drive you can. The PM5 does NOT need a lot of space. A 1GB flash drive is more than sufficient. The larger the USB flash drive, the more wasted money, and typically they are slower. The more space, the more you will be tempted to put other files on the drive. Also, large USB flash drives may come formatted at the factory with NTFS or exFAT which does not work with the PM5. You will have to reformat the drives to FAT or FAT32.
• Try to buy Name Brand flash drives from SanDisk, Kingston, and the like. No-name flash drives may work fine, but may also cause issues or ‘forget’ your data.
• Don’t buy USB 3.0 drives. The PM5 won’t make use of the extra speed you are paying for, and Concept2’s testing has shown that they take a LOT more power to run them.
• Avoid putting other files on the drive. If a lot of files are put on the flash drive, this may cause the PM5 to take more time to read and do other operations which will cause you to be impatient and frustrated.
• Some USB flash drives (especially the above mentioned USB 3.0 drives) take more power from the batteries than others. With batteries at 70%, low power USB flash drive may work, but an inefficient (power hungry) USB flash drive may result in a “Batteries too low for USB” message. This is because inserting the USB flash drive is drawing the battery voltage down to a point where we cannot ensure that reading and writing the drive will be successful. After this message is received, the monitor & batteries may still be used for a LONG time without USB flash drives.

[Carl Watts]

Doesn't look good in terms of future proofing the available flash drives for the PM5.

Basically the capacity is getting bigger and the move is to USB 3.0

Perhaps Concept 2 should have added a SD card slot or micro SD card slot, this must be lower power (its used in all the mobile phones) and not everyone needs to pull the Flash out of the PM5 every time they use it.

How much on board memory does the PM5 have ? how many rows can it store without the USB stick ? Flash is so cheap there should be enough internal storage you don't need the stick at all.

[raotor]

I emailed Concept2 (in the USA) about the problem, and the problem seems to stem from 1) USB power usage requirements vary widely, and 2) low batteries in the rowers. Here is their complete response:

Thanks for the feedback. We are seeing this issue with a lot of our users. The problem is USB flash drives come in many shapes, sizes, and interfaces.
Not all are created equal in many ways. Here are Concept2’s recommendations:
• Try to buy the smallest capacity USB 2.0 flash drive you can. The PM5 does NOT need a lot of space. A 1GB flash drive is more than sufficient. The larger the USB flash drive, the more wasted money, and typically they are slower. The more space, the more you will be tempted to put other files on the drive. Also, large USB flash drives may come formatted at the factory with NTFS or exFAT which does not work with the PM5. You will have to reformat the drives to FAT or FAT32.
• Try to buy Name Brand flash drives from SanDisk, Kingston, and the like. No-name flash drives may work fine, but may also cause issues or ‘forget’ your data.
• Don’t buy USB 3.0 drives. The PM5 won’t make use of the extra speed you are paying for, and Concept2’s testing has shown that they take a LOT more power to run them.
• Avoid putting other files on the drive. If a lot of files are put on the flash drive, this may cause the PM5 to take more time to read and do other operations which will cause you to be impatient and frustrated.
• Some USB flash drives (especially the above mentioned USB 3.0 drives) take more power from the batteries than others. With batteries at 70%, low power USB flash drive may work, but an inefficient (power hungry) USB flash drive may result in a “Batteries too low for USB” message. This is because inserting the USB flash drive is drawing the battery voltage down to a point where we cannot ensure that reading and writing the drive will be successful. After this message is received, the monitor & batteries may still be used for a LONG time without USB flash drives.

Thanks for that info from Concept 2 regarding the PM5. Very interesting but it also confirms my original supposition over a year ago that C2 had failed to design and develop the PM5 properly before its launch to the public. I was and still am fairly scathing about the lack of testing and some basic design elements of the PM5 and why C2 rushed this unit out when there appeared no business critical reason to do so.

At the time I wondered why C2 had not chosen to use an SD card as the memory medium to replace the log card as it was smaller and could be similarly inserted into a slot under the PM5 that would see it protected against bumps and other external accidents unlike the current arrangement that sees a USB stick jutting out the back of the PM looking like it's just waiting to be snapped off by a passing gym member as almost happened to me while using my Corsair 4 GB USB 2.0 stick back when I tried to use the PM5 a year or so ago at my gym. USB connectors can be forced into the wrong orientation which may damage the port whereas as far as I know, this cannot be done with an SD card. In addition, I believe SD cards require less power for reads and writes too.

The statement posted from C2 basically points to a lack of proper design and development undertaken on the PM5 and some questionable choices in design direction resulting from this lack of diligence that has now meant that the choice of USB stick can effectively determine how reliable your PM5 is.

As far as internal memory capacity goes in relation to Carl's query; I seem to recall the blurb stating that something like 1,000 workouts can be stored internally. However, I don't know if the C2 Utility software can extract workouts for upload to the log book site directly from internal storage or not. I would suggest that if you wanted to continue using the PM5 at your gym that you could elect to move internally saved workouts onto the stick after your session but I seem to recall doing this myself and still finding that the write to the USB stick failed and this fact was not verified by the PM5 and so it removed the workout from internal memory and thus, I lost everything. it seems simple enough to me to have a write verified before removing the corresponding workout from internal memory but at the time and with the firmware version in use then, this was certainly not the case which I find no excuse for as it is a basic premise of data storage management.

If Concept 2 revised the PM5 (PM5 V2 ?) hardware to include an SD card slot then I think this basic change might fix many of the instability issues. There are other elements to what C2 say that I take issue with but will spare you all my thoughts on those

Carl is correct. A PM4 with a log card left inserted is a very reliable setup. I did a "Just Row" the other day and just left the machine afterward not pressing the MENU button and that row was safely stored on my log card using my PM4.

[Citroen]

Basically don't do just rows, set-up a set distance or a set time. The PM3 and PM4 don't like just rows either and failed to put them in memory at the finish.

Unless you explicitly hit the [BACK/MENU] button at the end of the "Just Row".

[valgozi]

From everything that I have read it seems that the power draw of a USB drive is the issue here.

Does the PM5 have both the USB A and USB B inputs?
If it has the USB B input what happens if it is plugged into a PC via the USB B, and has a USB drive in the USB A slot any errors?
USB B on the end of just a USB power pack would this keep the display powered on with no loss of draw when USB drive used in the USB A slot?

Would a powered USB drive sort this power issue out?
In searching I have not found any USB drives that are powered, this is because the USB standard always draws the power via the USB port. Does anyone know of a powered USB stick that draws nothing from the device it is plugged into? So has a in built rechargeable battery.

Could concept2 source a powered USB stick to possibly rectify the problem?

This issue is stopping me upgrading as it seems to still be an issue a year on, so possibly something software will never fully sort out as the powering of the hardware is the issue.
Batteries dropping below the necessary level to allow workouts to store within a few weeks is not good.

Can workouts be sent to say the Erg Data app via Bluetooth after a row is done and hopefully saved to internal memory? (No USB drives inserted)