HRV resources

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HRV resources

Postby GJS » March 8th, 2017, 4:30 pm

Heart rate variability. What is it?

https://hrvtraining.com/2012/01/16/hear ... ed-part-1/

(A worthwhile site. Accessible. Gathers recent research. Emphasis on strength training/ powerlifting but lots of stuff for endurance folk.)

What do I need? A hr belt monitor (Bluetooth will make life easier) and an hrv app. I use EliteHRV. Others may be equally as good.

NB:
Unfortunately, at this time the available wrist band monitors, watches, and finger sensors that use Pulse Oximetry or LED to detect heart rate do not accurately measure (or do not support) R-R intervals. R-R intervals are the exact time measurements between each heart beat that are needed for truly accurate HRV calculations. Due to the limitations of those hardware devices, we do not recommend them for reliable HRV readings.


https://elitehrv.com/faq/
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Re: HRV resources

Postby GJS » March 8th, 2017, 5:58 pm

What use is it?

Used thoughtfully it should give an indication of your current state of recovery from previous training efforts; it's a decent marker of autonomic wellness which will shift dependent on training load, life stress, sleep, diet etc.

Is that it? Folk with good HRV scores tend to perform better and possibly enjoy greater adaptations to high intensity training. That is very interesting. What if you based your training on your HRV score?

What if you do low intensity stuff when your HRV score is low and high intensity stuff when your HRV score is high? What if you did that rather than follow some traditional programme? It's been done:

http://www.pgedf.ufpr.br/Referencias08/ ... 20RAUL.pdf

The HRV individualised approach worked better. (There are clear limitations with this study but still).

More on on using HRV as a tool for prescribing training. (This is a review piece. Some interesting tables and programmes after the references).

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... escription

Most HRV advocates are - to their credit - pretty clear about its limitations and tend to be conservative in their recommendations. Yet, what if you could use it directly after a training session to determine the degree of stress that session produced?

The whole polarised deal has as one of its pillars this idea: threshold work is disproportionately stressful and the adaptations that accrue aren't sufficient to warrant spending much time there. This is Seiler's 'black hole.' If you believe it exists (for you), you would sooner avoid it.

For Seiler the blackhole is between the aerobic and anaerobic threshold. Between 2mmol - 4mmol (roughly). If a highly trained athlete works at threshold does HRV indicate that the session is unduly stressful to the autonomic system? It seems to:

http://www.fftri.com/files/pdf/seiler%202007%20MSSE.pdf

What about the recreational/ moderately trained citizen? Does the same hold for her? Could she use HRV monitoring to effectively determine her 'black hole' without resorting to lactate testing (which is a pain in the arse, and costly, and needs doing semi-regularly etc)? Could she do UT1 work and attend to the response? How does the response to UT2 work compare ?

etcetc
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Re: HRV resources

Postby bisqeet » March 9th, 2017, 4:59 am

just finished establishing a baseline (requires 3 day continuous testing).
Also using Elite HRV (just picked the first with good reviews from Play store)
I had a H7 polar belt lying around - I couldn't get the Ant+ to work i normally use (My phone is Ant+ compatible)

Weekly Averages
HRV: 57
Readiness: 8
HR: 56

Today:
HRV 58
Great Job! comparedto your recent baseline, you should be able to train harder and handle more stress today!

Still not sure of the importance of the readiness. My training is nearly always HR dependent, which means my training intensity is reflected directly from those values.
Will just keep a record - and see if it helps any.
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Re: HRV resources

Postby Balkan boy » March 9th, 2017, 5:17 am

I flip-flop in my opinion about HRV.
A few years ago I dismissed it as new age and in the category of counting steps.
Now I see it has a bit more serious following. I'll read up on the links you've posted.

I'd like to try it, but my HR sensor is ANT+. I attempted to connect it a few times, but my LG phone isn't compatible.

In the past few months I started to measure my resting HR every morning for an indication of recovery. I'm also more focused on how I feel during the exercise and during the recovery.
Resting HR is a good indication coupled with common sense and a bit of experience.

P.S.
GJS,
Do you perhaps know a way to access articles on http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com without purchasing the membership?
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Re: HRV resources

Postby GJS » March 9th, 2017, 7:37 am

I don't, Balkan Boy.
A surprising number of full articles are available at researchgate.
And, I often find that if you copy and paste the paper title (perhaps with the addition: pdf) into the general Google search engine the full paper is on the net somewhere.


bisqeet wrote:Still not sure of the importance of the readiness. My training is nearly always HR dependent, which means my training intensity is reflected directly from those values.


Dean, the idea is that hr may not always directly reflect the degree of stress the session imparts. It's not thought to be a linear relationship.

So, if you are sat comfortably in UT2 and raise the rate such that your hr jumps 10 beats but remains within UT2 the stress likely goes up but broadly reflects that 10 beat rise.

If you raise the rate again and go up a further 10 beats and are now sat at mid-high UT1 (and in so doing have passed your aerobic threshold and are not too far from your anaerobic threshold) the argument goes that while your hr has risen those same ten beats the stress response is exaggerated and out of proportion to that ten beat rise.

That's one of the reasons folk make such a fuss about lactate testing etc. (Because those hr bands that we all use are very likely pretty inaccurate. They work for the average citizen. Yet, who is average? Your lactate threshold (hopefully) shifts with training etc etc)
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Re: HRV resources

Postby bisqeet » March 9th, 2017, 7:51 am

GJS wrote:I don't, Balkan Boy.
A surprising number of full articles are available at researchgate.
And, I often find that if you copy and paste the paper title (perhaps with the addition: pdf) into the general Google search engine the full paper is on the net somewhere.


bisqeet wrote:Still not sure of the importance of the readiness. My training is nearly always HR dependent, which means my training intensity is reflected directly from those values.


Dean, the idea is that hr may not always directly reflect the degree of stress the session imparts. It's not thought to be a linear relationship.

So, if you are sat comfortably in UT2 and raise the rate such that your hr jumps 10 beats but remains within UT2 the stress likely goes up but broadly reflects that 10 beat rise.

If you raise the rate again and go up a further 10 beats and are now sat at mid-high UT1 (and in so doing have passed your aerobic threshold and are not too far from your anaerobic threshold) the argument goes that while your hr has raised those same ten beats the stress response is exaggerated and out of proportion to that ten beat rise.

That's one of the reasons folk make such a fuss about lactate testing etc. (Because those hr bands that we all use are very likely pretty inaccurate. They work for the average citizen. Yet, who is average? Your lactate threshold (hopefully) shifts with training etc etc)



i was refering to HRV and the usage of it (specifically for me).
I just see it offering a "readiness" indicator - that say - you're good to train.

I suppose if you are not following a plan, where the session are laid down - it might be usefull
ah - ok today im good - lets do a 5kTT HIIT - or nah - looking bad - maybe a little overtrained - take a day off.

mind you - i've not had that - jumping 10 beats scenario, but what use is a HRV readiness test in this case?

if i found that my pace (usually a soft target for me) was not consistant tp previous rows, I would just slow down / speed up.

Its normally only UT2 rows I do "observe" strictly - exception being the current plan (Eddie Fletcher Marathon Plan)
this uses the facts that for a fast marathon the HR averages 90% of HRMax. Thus the training is kept to a large extent at this level for acclimitisation at different stroke rates...
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Re: HRV resources

Postby GJS » March 9th, 2017, 8:11 am

I shouldn't have used the word jump.
When I say jump ten beats I don't mean a rapid and weird rise but simply a rise.

When you train you are training for the explicit purpose of promoting adaptations (More capillaries about the muscles, more mitochondria, better functioning mitochondria, better cardiac function etc).

The idea is that when HRV is high and your readiness is very high the body is better placed to a) perform and b) make those adaptations.
That's a very useful tool should it pan out like that.

One might follow a programme but alter it a little based on HRV scores. Go easier when HRV is low and harder when it's high. I'm not saying one should do that, there are lots of factors to consider. (The chief guide is always: am I making progress here with my plan? etc etc)
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Re: HRV resources

Postby Balkan boy » March 9th, 2017, 8:50 am

Regarding HR at UT2,
I don't think it's possible or useful to keep the HR and pace flat for a 60+ minute session. You'd either have to drop the pace or let the HR drift.
I usually keep an eye on the average heart rate for the session on my watch.

UT2-1 sessions are pretty safe as long as you're mindful of the the HR cap, RPE and lactate threshold if you happen to know it.
Where I see HRV being useful is in helping decide whether or not to do a HIT session when I get out of the bed to train.

For example, this morning I woke up after 9h of sleep feeling reasonably rested with reasonably low resting HR. I was debating if I should do a HIT session 24h after the last HIT session or do a nice, long LIT. I decided on the HIT for the sake of experiment and to honor the training plan. The workout was 4x2k/5'r and I had to bail out after 2nd interval. I was barely holding to the pace with increased stroke rate and high HR. I know I would have been fine if I did the LIT.


GJS wrote:I don't, Balkan Boy.
A surprising number of full articles are available at researchgate.
And, I often find that if you copy and paste the paper title (perhaps with the addition: pdf) into the general Google search engine the full paper is on the net somewhere.


Great tip! I found it on reaserchgate.net
It's this: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/272081596_5-week_block_periodization_increases_aerobic_power_in_elite_cross-country_skiers_Block_training_in_elite_cross-country_skiers?_sg=nL3AWJZVVwj3CkVE-2_Lu7AFlijlH-c5OmcHCR-3vcmbrRKQL155-dEMmFlwammj
I wanted to see what magic they used to squeeze 5 HIT sessions in one week, but unfortunately they didn't go into details.
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Re: HRV resources

Postby bisqeet » March 9th, 2017, 11:13 am

Balkan boy wrote:Regarding HR at UT2,
I don't think it's possible or useful to keep the HR and pace flat for a 60+ minute session. You'd either have to drop the pace or let the HR drift.
....



errr - thats exactly the point of HR capped pieces.
You are supposed to adopt the pace accordingly.
dehydration, is one of the main reasons for HR progression on longer pieces.

hit the zone as quick as possible, and keep there.
You are trying to do something that requires a specific HR Zone to complete
i.e. building up the threshold, basebuilding acclimitasation...

pace targets are alswas - soft or guidelines.

theres not much point in saying i'm going to do 2hrs at UT2 HR cap 140 then half way through decide you are going to slow so might as well alter the pace to 2:00....
sort of voids the whole aspect and goal of the training...


Balkan boy wrote:....
Where I see HRV being useful is in helping decide whether or not to do a HIT session when I get out of the bed to train.
..


thats my thinking too...
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Re: HRV resources

Postby Balkan boy » March 9th, 2017, 12:55 pm

bisqeet wrote:
Balkan boy wrote:Regarding HR at UT2,
I don't think it's possible or useful to keep the HR and pace flat for a 60+ minute session. You'd either have to drop the pace or let the HR drift.
....



errr - thats exactly the point of HR capped pieces.
You are supposed to adopt the pace accordingly.
dehydration, is one of the main reasons for HR progression on longer pieces.

hit the zone as quick as possible, and keep there.
You are trying to do something that requires a specific HR Zone to complete
i.e. building up the threshold, basebuilding acclimitasation...

pace targets are alswas - soft or guidelines.

theres not much point in saying i'm going to do 2hrs at UT2 HR cap 140 then half way through decide you are going to slow so might as well alter the pace to 2:00....
sort of voids the whole aspect and goal of the training...


Then all training turns into a downhill ride.
More importantly, how do you measure progress if you are always dropping the pace?

I used to do it like that. I used one or two L4 sequences and focused on keeping the HR lower then previously. I feel like I lost that year of training and improved very modestly.

It's funny, but we disagree on other points as well. :D
I tested it on myself (and read of others) that easing into a steady state session over 10-15 minutes keeps the lactate more manageable over longer period.

Good read on hydration: https://www.amazon.com/Waterlogged-Serious-Problem-Overhydration-Endurance/dp/145042497X
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Re: HRV resources

Postby bisqeet » March 9th, 2017, 2:09 pm

Balkan boy wrote:..
Then all training turns into a downhill ride.
More importantly, how do you measure progress if you are always dropping the pace?


again - pace is not the target. it never was.
If you are having trouble understanding HR capped sessions, think of it as a Rate cap instead or a pace cap even...
Would you increase rate on a (for example) 30'R20, because you could no longer keep the 1:50 you were pulling in the first 10 minutes... no.

its the same with a HR cap. you stick to it.

If you really feel the need to compare , then compare against distances of previous pieces if you must.
distance or pace are just soft targets - nice to have - not important.

on HR capped stuff you are training some specific goal - general CV, building up tolerance, working muscles without oxygen..all using different bands.

no point defining your session target as general cv fitness, wanting to stop in UT2 band - then zonking off in AN, because you feel the need for speed.
make a plan and stick to it.

I guess its why, some prefer watts over HR - because of the psycological factor - i need a higher pace :)
i guess its not for everyone - has been proven to have better results (polarised training)

question: - how do you ease into steady state...?
I suppose it would depend on how you define it - usually its about 55- 70% HRmax. Uptil now I never felt the need to do a warmup, or ease into it.
I haven't measured it, but I doubt that much lactate is being produced at that rate - at least not enough to cause problems (at least for me).
but then I do a fair bit of steady state stuff - somewhere about 3,5MM / year - might be that i have built up some lactate tolerance or pushed the threshold.


haven't read the book by Nokes, but it does make sense.

"Drink only to thirst, not on a schedule." - I wasn't aware that endurance athletes used to or still do - overhydrate delibrately...
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Re: HRV resources

Postby Balkan boy » March 10th, 2017, 3:48 am

Let's get back on topic.

GJS,
Do you know if R-R intervals measured by my HR monitor can be used to determine HRV?
This is what I'm seeing:
HR is the white line, and the R-R is the red line.
http://i.imgur.com/E8zGT6A.jpg
This is 10 minutes upon waking with the resting HR between 47-49. Based on that and the previous load, I decided not to train that morning. My minimum resting HR is 42.
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Re: HRV resources

Postby GJS » March 10th, 2017, 12:43 pm

Balkan boy wrote:Great tip! I found it on reaserchgate.net
It's this: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/272081596_5-week_block_periodization_increases_aerobic_power_in_elite_cross-country_skiers_Block_training_in_elite_cross-country_skiers?_sg=nL3AWJZVVwj3CkVE-2_Lu7AFlijlH-c5OmcHCR-3vcmbrRKQL155-dEMmFlwammj
I wanted to see what magic they used to squeeze 5 HIT sessions in one week, but unfortunately they didn't go into details.


I think the magic is in having elite xc skiers as your subjects! Though it's not unlikely that their power outputs were diminished through the later sessions. That sort of thing would be a tough sell to the moderately trained: over this week your performance will get worse and you'll feel like death but you'll be fitter next week. Probably.

That said, always eyeopening what sedentary/moderately trained folk are able to accomplish during studies.

Unless you can get hold of all the RR intervals (and input them in a spreadsheet and apply some mathematical wizardry (available in Excel, apparently) I don't think what you have there is enough. HRV captures the variation between intervals and the 1277 figure (1.277sec between beats) captures the mean, so that is but a different way of presenting your hr (1.277 x 47 = 60).
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Re: HRV resources

Postby GJS » March 10th, 2017, 12:56 pm

What sort of HRV values might we expect?

https://hrvcourse.com/hrv-demographics-age-gender/

https://hrvcourse.com/hrv-demographics-fitness-level/

My numbers this am, lying down:

HR (avg) 57

RMSSD 82.16
LnRMSSD 4.41
SDNN 116.94
NN50 84
PNN50 59%
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Re: HRV resources

Postby Balkan boy » March 11th, 2017, 5:39 am

GJS wrote:Unless you can get hold of all the RR intervals (and input them in a spreadsheet and apply some mathematical wizardry (available in Excel, apparently) I don't think what you have there is enough. HRV captures the variation between intervals and the 1277 figure (1.277sec between beats) captures the mean, so that is but a different way of presenting your hr (1.277 x 47 = 60).


It can be done, although my equipment (Suunto Quest) doesn't give complete data.
Here is a way to do it manually through Excel: https://www.alancouzens.com/blog/HRV_Calc.html
All I got with that is a number 88. I suppose you need a baseline before interpreting the values.

The other way is to use Kubios application. http://www.kubios.com/ (NB. it requires Matlab 9.1). It'd be interesting if anyone could compare the results between this and mobile apps like EliteHRV.
I've tried it, but it wouldn't accept my data.


GJS wrote:I think the magic is in having elite xc skiers as your subjects! Though it's not unlikely that their power outputs were diminished through the later sessions. That sort of thing would be a tough sell to the moderately trained: over this week your performance will get worse and you'll feel like death but you'll be fitter next week. Probably.


You're right on point regarding elite athletes. My guess is that their rate of recovery is double that of a moderately trained person. Genes aside, they worked hard to get there.
You've pretty much described my current week. :) I need to survive one more day.
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