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Postby [old] Yukon John » March 4th, 2006, 2:49 pm

I've really enjoyed the running thread, the sharing of goals, race results and training tips. I'm planning on doing a lot of cycling this summer (training and racing) along with erging. I'm not an experienced rider having done less than 10 races and a few triathalons. I remember reading on one of Xeno's comments that he cross-trained with cycling when he was doing a lot of competition. So it seems like they compliment each other well. Some areas that I'm interested and would like to find out more include; amounts to row and erg depending on your goals, peoples favorite workouts for different areas of cycling (i.e. improving on hills, time trials, road races, etc.), technique, strategy, and more. Our races are still a bit off, I believe it gets going in April. So I've got time to do some training and hopefully learn from my fellow ergers. Here is the site of our local club. <a href="http://www.velonorth.ca/index.php" target="_blank">http://www.velonorth.ca/index.php</a> We're a relatively small community, but there is a good level of competition here. So, please help me out with some tips and info. when you get a chance. Thanks, Yukon John.<br /><br />2 hours later<br /><br />I just finished my first long interval session of this year. I read an article back in 2000 by Lance Armstrong's coach. He said that a good workout for improving time trials is to gradually work up to doing 4 X 15 min. at a 40k time trial pace. I can't remember what he suggested for rest intervals, but I use 5 minutes. So today I did 3 X 15 min. at a bit slower then the 40k pace (all on a wind trainer.)
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Postby [old] johnmcclellan » March 4th, 2006, 10:06 pm

<!--quoteo(post=58442:date=Mar 4 2006, 01:49 PM:name=Yukon John)--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Yukon John @ Mar 4 2006, 01:49 PM) </b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> I remember reading on one of Xeno's comments that he cross-trained with cycling when he was doing a lot of competition. So it seems like they compliment each other well. Some areas that I'm interested and would like to find out more include; amounts to row and erg depending on your goals, peoples favorite workouts for different areas of cycling (i.e. improving on hills, time trials, road races, etc.), technique, strategy, and more. <br />2 hours later<br /><br />I just finished my first long interval session of this year. I read an article back in 2000 by Lance Armstrong's coach. He said that a good workout for improving time trials is to gradually work up to doing 4 X 15 min. at a 40k time trial pace. I can't remember what he suggested for rest intervals, but I use 5 minutes. So today I did 3 X 15 min. at a bit slower then the 40k pace (all on a wind trainer.)<br /> </td></tr></table><br />John, fancy meeting you here!<br /><br />I put in about 3 1/2 hours of riding today. 1 hr on the indoor trainer, w/20 min at 85% of 40k wattage (power, not pace), and then a little over 2 1/2 hours outside on my fixed gear (42*16), back and forth from a charity basketball tournament (Doug Flutie Foundation - great cause!). I'm guessing the 35 degrees (F) in Boston is warmer than what you've got!<br /><br />I think cycling must be great cross-training for rowing, because my erg career just completed it's third month. My daughter (why I'm here in the first place) had a strong cycling background before she joined her school's crew - she has gone up to 200k with me on the bike, and she made a varsity boat her freshman year. I'm hoping that erging is as good for cycling - actually, my power meter is already telling me that it is.<br /><br />Turning to LT intervals (i.e., work at 40k pace), I'm coached by Carmichael Training Systems, and their program would not start this early in the season with that much work just below LT. They would have you do more work at "tempo" level (about 80% of LT) before progressing up to the type of session you just did. If you are approaching LT and going for 15 minutes, you should take a longer recovery interval - probably 10 to 15. At tempo intensity, 4-5 min should be ok recovery from 15 min block.<br /><br />On the otherhand, I recently read a great book by Michael Ross, Maximum Performance for Cyclists, (www.bikedoctraining.com). He recommends a brief foundation period, before diving into lots of work at LT intensity, but starting with shorter repeats, and lots of them. Both on the bike and on the erg this winter I did a lot of 2 or 3 sets of 8 * 2min at LT, with 2 min recovery, 5 min between sets. That was a great session - tough, but didn't wipe me out. The principle is that you will be able to do a lot more work at LT and be fresher than if you push for the longer intervals. Then as the season progresses, lengthen interval time spent at threshold. Ross recommends 4 days of high intensity work followed by 3 days of rest, and minimal amounts of lower intensity cycling. With my focus on really long rides (600-1200km), I believe I need more pure time in the saddle than is outlined in his program. Even if muscle physiology is optimized through shorter, higher intensity work, if you are going to spend a whole day (or 2) on the bike, you need to spend a lot of time on the bike (paraphrasing Eddy Merckx). Ross is actually just 10 miles down the road from me, and I'm going to have an in-depth talk with him later this month about what he thinks about training for ultraevents. In addition to his cycling book, he has a generalized book on sports medicine and training principles, which includes a section how to maximize natural testosterone production via exercise and diet manipulation. Probably should mention that on the protein thread.<br /><br />Hope this is helpful!
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Postby [old] Yukon John » March 4th, 2006, 11:26 pm

Wow, that is a wealth of information, Thanks. I'm going to have to print that one and start digesting it (don't worry I'm not sliding back to the protein thread :D ) I'm amazed that your doing such long ultra events. I didn't even know that those kind of races took place. I thought that I'd be doing pretty good if I did a ~150 mile race up here! Hats off to you :). I know it must vary week to week and season to season, but you must put in a lot of hours, eh?<br /><br />I'm also going to check into those books you mentioned. It appears that I have some learning to do (should be fun!) Anymore tips on training would be greatly appreciated!<br /><br />As far as temperature goes, we're finally starting to warm up. Actually I shouldn't complain, we've had a warm winter. The coldest part of it has been in the last few weeks. Even on March 1st our low temp. was <br />-37C. Our day time temps. are now getting close to the freezing point (about -5C) with night time temps around -20C. Hopefully Jim (from the Round the World" thread isn't reading this. He lives up in Yellowknife where he has a real right to complain about cold weather :D ) You can tell if you're talking to a Canadian when they start talking about the weather. It's a national past time :D .<br /><br />
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Postby [old] Citroen » March 5th, 2006, 3:37 am

<!--quoteo(post=58481:date=Mar 5 2006, 02:06 AM:name=John McClellan)--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John McClellan @ Mar 5 2006, 02:06 AM) </b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>I think cycling must be great cross-training for rowing, because my erg career just completed it's third month. My daughter (why I'm here in the first place) had a strong cycling background before she joined her school's crew - she has gone up to 200k with me on the bike, and she made a varsity boat her freshman year. I'm hoping that erging is as good for cycling - actually, my power meter is already telling me that it is.<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />It is. I spent the winter of 2004/5 struggling up the hills on the Sunday runs with the club (http://www.nhrc.co.uk). This winter I've been on the front setting the pace. I've done over 1,800,000m on the erg since Sept 2005. I'm hoping it will improve my 25mile/40Km time - I still haven't done a TT under an hour (I need to shave just over 4mins off my PB).
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Postby [old] jonwilko » March 5th, 2006, 4:34 am

<br /> Hi John, I agree that the 2 sports complement eachother well, although I now feel that the cycling has had a more beneficial effect on my erg than the other way around! I started on the erg as winter training when the weather and suicidal British driving finally convinced me that I would live longer if I stayed indoors!<br /><br />I ride time trials and track in the winter- if you can get to a velodrome I really recommend it as the power interval training is phenomenal, and a lot safer than the road!<br /><br />After 3 months of track racing I took 2 mins off my 10k and 31 sec off my 5 k. I put this down to the track and now am ready to start the TT season much fitter than usual.<br /><br />Good luck with your cycling, just get in a good base of miles before blasting the intervals too much - I ride 1000k in February/March before I start going hard as I have knee problems otherwise.<br /><br />JON
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Postby [old] Yukon John » March 5th, 2006, 1:37 pm

<!--quoteo--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--quotec-->Hi John, I agree that the 2 sports complement eachother well, although I now feel that the cycling has had a more beneficial effect on my erg than the other way around! I started on the erg as winter training when the weather and suicidal British driving finally convinced me that I would live longer if I stayed indoors!<br /><br />I ride time trials and track in the winter- if you can get to a velodrome I really recommend it as the power interval training is phenomenal, and a lot safer than the road!<br /><br />After 3 months of track racing I took 2 mins off my 10k and 31 sec off my 5 k. I put this down to the track and now am ready to start the TT season much fitter than usual.<br /><br />Good luck with your cycling, just get in a good base of miles before blasting the intervals too much - I ride 1000k in February/March before I start going hard as I have knee problems otherwise.<br /><br />JON </td></tr></table><br /><br />Thanks for the feedback Jon and Dougie, I'm a bit late getting going on the base building, but I'll work on that and maybe throw in some of the short interval stuff that John M. recommended. I don't have access to a velodrome. It sounds great! I'm not even sure where in Canada one would be located :cry: . <br /><br />Dougie, That's a fast time for 40k. One guy up here once told me that breaking an hour for a 40k is similar in a way to breaking the 4 minute mile. Maybe not as hard, but a major milestone all the same. Good luck in trying go get there!
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Postby [old] johnmcclellan » March 8th, 2006, 9:37 pm

<!--quoteo(post=58532:date=Mar 5 2006, 12:37 PM:name=Yukon John)--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Yukon John @ Mar 5 2006, 12:37 PM) </b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--quoteo--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><br />After 3 months of track racing I took 2 mins off my 10k and 31 sec off my 5 k. I put this down to the track and now am ready to start the TT season much fitter than usual.<br /><br />JON </td></tr></table><br />After 3 months of track racing I took 2 mins off my 10k and 31 sec off my 5 k. I put this down to the track and now am ready to start the TT season much fitter than usual.<br /><br /><br />JON </td></tr></table><br /><br />That's terrific improvement! I should hope to see as much!<br /><br /><!--quoteo--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Thanks for the feedback Jon and Dougie, I'm a bit late getting going on the base building, but I'll work on that and maybe throw in some of the short interval stuff that John M. recommended. I don't have access to a velodrome. It sounds great! I'm not even sure where in Canada one would be located :cry: . <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I've actually got one w/in an hour of home, but I'm not sure I can ever get there. I do a lot of fixed gear riding, however, including for our local 10m TT (w/hills! RPMs avg 95, but range from 50 to 135!)<br /><br /><br />
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Postby [old] johnmcclellan » March 8th, 2006, 10:08 pm

Thoughts on transitioning from rowing season to cycling season (as a cyclist who took up rowing this winter):<br />Rowing this winter definitely increased my leg strength and power. However, the strength gains from the low stroke count of rowing need to be translated into effective high rpm pedaling. My coach and I have developed a schedule that consists of 3 days of different types of intervals (1 hour before work), a recovery day, 2 weekend days to build mileage, and a rest day. All interval sessions have 10 min gradual warmup to base mile intensity (200-230 watts right now)<br /><br />THe first interval session is low rpm (60-70), high force - on the big chainring. This has higher muscle tension than one would use in normal cycling, but it makes use of the force generation capability developed through rowing, but it is teaching the muscles to apply it in a cycling motion. Pulse rate will be relatively low for watts generated. These can be fairly long blocks 8-20 min, w/ perhaps 50% recovery spinning.<br /><br />The second session is fast pedaling - 110-130 rpm, low force (small chainring). My legs need to relearn rapid firing, and this forces them to that. Watts should be relatively low - a little higher than base miles, but not too high. Pulse rate will be high for watts generated - if watts are too high, it is turning into an anaerobic session, and it is too early in the season for that. Intervals are short (1-2 min) w/ at least equal recovery.<br /><br />Third session is sub-LT (I'll try for ~300 watts), 3-4*6-8 min w/ approx equal recovery spinning. I am doing this type of workout earlier than last season, because my body is better primed for it because of intensity of erging.<br /><br />Fourth day is easy spin, pulse really low.<br /><br />5&6 are rides as long as family commitments will allow - variety of terrain, avoid going near LT power except to crest a hill. <br /><br />Monday is rest!<br /><br />As time permits, I'll throw in an erg session and some lunch time runs with colleagues. <br /><br />That's this month's program. I may be able to throw in a century towards the end of the month. The local 10m TT starts first week of April, which will add another block of work at LT intensity. Later on I'll add higher intensity intervals (>LT). First event is 200km brevet May 6th. Goal event is 1200km in August.<br /><br />Happy to discuss training ideas!
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Postby [old] Jim Barry » March 8th, 2006, 10:58 pm

Thanks for the details John. I struggle with high rpm as a sometimes road cyclist usual mountain biker and long-time rower. <br /><br />Great thread. I'm active on the Runner's version too. So far this year I've gotten out twice but some ITB stress from running has me sidelined for a little bit here. Dreaming of getting back. I found that running and rowing (about as much as I cycle in the summer) have sustained my modest cycling abilities pretty well over the six month winter layoff. My home course time trial I did on Sunday(before my knee flared up) has me about 8 minutes off pace over an hour, but a gusty 10 mph crosswind on the course probably added 5 minutes (that and more clothes). I've raced my mt bike to mid-pack results on just rowing alone in the past (and I'm not a skilled racer). <br /><br />I've got to say though I love the erg because there is not one piece of piggy bank busting carbon fiber that you "have to have" on it. The only thing that makes it fast is you!
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Postby [old] ebolton » March 8th, 2006, 11:16 pm

<!--quoteo--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--quotec-->I've actually got one w/in an hour of home, but I'm not sure I can ever get there. I do a lot of fixed gear riding, however, including for our local 10m TT (w/hills! RPMs avg 95, but range from 50 to 135!)<br /><br />--------------------<br /><br />John McClellan<br />Concord, MA </td></tr></table><br /><br />John, where is there a velodrome within an hour of Concord? I admit I haven't looked for one in a while, but last I knew the closest one was Kissena in New York City.<br /><br />I'm less than 50 mi from you in NH. Member of CCB and NSC, usually ride with the faster NSC guys.<br /><br />Ed<br /><br /><br />
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Postby [old] johnmcclellan » March 9th, 2006, 8:53 am

<!--quoteo(post=58807:date=Mar 8 2006, 09:58 PM:name=Jim Barry)--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Jim Barry @ Mar 8 2006, 09:58 PM) </b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>I've got to say though I love the erg because there is not one piece of piggy bank busting carbon fiber that you "have to have" on it. The only thing that makes it fast is you!<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Jim,<br />I've been telling my cycling friends what a great deal the C2 is - for less than the price of a PowerTap wheel you get a sophisticated power meter and a complete exercise machine! And as an ex-swimmer, self induced torture experienced in isolation is natural for me, so I'm enjoying erging. But at the end of the day, nothing compares (for me) to the freedom and speed of a bike.<br /><br />In terms of rowing being good prep for cycling - at the same avg pulse, I'm looking at a 20 watt improvement right now vs. mid-season last year. If I can keep that up, I should see some good results once I'm back to events (mostly brevets and TT, don't do road races).
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Postby [old] Yukon John » March 9th, 2006, 2:49 pm

Yesterday I did the workout that John M. recommended, 3 sets of 8X2:00, rest interval 2:00 with 5 min. easy cycling between sets. It took two hours with a short warm up/ cool down. I liked it! I can see the advantage to this workout. It allows you to work the muscles at a relatively hard pace, but with them being short and equal time easy recovery it's not too hard. The big advantage that I see for me is the length of the overall interval session. Before I was doing 3X15 minutes w/ 5 minute rest intervals. The whole workout would take a bit over an hour. With John's workout the muscles are stressed on and off for close to two hours. <br /><br />The day before I did, what I think triathaletes call a brick workout but with rowing instead of running. I alternated cycling and rowing. I'm going to continue doing these workouts so that I can keep rowing (right now I'm trying to get rid of some back troubles.) I need to soon set up a training plan for both sports. I'd like to be able to cycle long distances by mid-June. I'm going to see if I can incorporate some of your training ideas John into that plan, THANKS! <br /><br />Side note; Someone in my office recently sold me (dirt cheap) a little pocket pc. Besides keeping me organized, I've downloaded a great program for logging different activites. It's called MySportTraining. It's on a 10 day free trail for now. Does anyone have any other programs like this that they like? <a href="http://www.vidaone.com/mst_ppc.htm" target="_blank">http://www.vidaone.com/mst_ppc.htm</a>
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Postby [old] Afterburner » March 9th, 2006, 4:31 pm

Ooh, a cycling thread, I'm excited. :) <br />I don't do a whole lot right now, just the occasional ~40mi ride down to Key Biscayne and back but am looking forward to getting back into it when I move back to Portland in April. There's just a serious lack of good places to ride here in Miami.<br />Currently ride a mountain bike with slicks on it (sad, I know) but am hoping to get my first road bike when I get back to the NW as well. Any suggestions? I want to try to keep it under $1500.<br />As for the two sports being good cross training for one another, I can't think of a better combination. I've noticed that cycling is magical for an explosive leg drive when I row and that rowing is great for just about everything with regards to cycling.<br />Happy rowing (and cycling)!<br /><br />Heather
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Postby [old] Yukon John » March 9th, 2006, 4:49 pm

<!--quoteo--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--quotec--><!--quoteo(post=58862:date=Mar 9 2006, 12:31 PM:name=Afterburner)--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Afterburner @ Mar 9 2006, 12:31 PM) </b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Ooh, a cycling thread, I'm excited. :) <br />I don't do a whole lot right now, just the occasional ~40mi ride down to Key Biscayne and back but am looking forward to getting back into it when I move back to Portland in April. There's just a serious lack of good places to ride here in Miami.<br />Currently ride a mountain bike with slicks on it (sad, I know) but am hoping to get my first road bike when I get back to the NW as well. Any suggestions? I want to try to keep it under $1500.<br />As for the two sports being good cross training for one another, I can't think of a better combination. I've noticed that cycling is magical for an explosive leg drive when I row and that rowing is great for just about everything with regards to cycling.<br />Happy rowing (and cycling)!<br /><br />Heather<br /> </td></tr></table> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Hi Heather, I've never been to either your current home area or Portland, but I'd imagine that Florida would be pretty flat and Portland not? I've heard that Portland is pretty famous for it's running community. Do you know if there is much going on there for cycling? <br /><br />I don't have experiance riding different road bikes, but I've got a Giant TCR1 (about 5 years old) and I'm very happy with it. Maybe some others here who've tried different bikes can let us know what they think? John.
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Postby [old] johnmcclellan » March 9th, 2006, 5:31 pm

<!--quoteo(post=58862:date=Mar 9 2006, 03:31 PM:name=Afterburner)--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Afterburner @ Mar 9 2006, 03:31 PM) </b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><br />Currently ride a mountain bike with slicks on it (sad, I know) but am hoping to get my first road bike when I get back to the NW as well. Any suggestions? I want to try to keep it under $1500.<br /><br />Heather<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Heather, <br />Nothing sad about mtb w/slicks - very practical urban commuter rig - don't apologize. A similar question about choosing a road bike was posed by someone in the Wolverine Plan thread. Before suggestions, I would ask what type of riding you want to do now / might want to do in the future? Too many bikes are set up with racing geometry, which is fairly upright, steep steering angle and a long top tube to stretch you out and make you more aerodynamic. Throw in really skinny tires and you've got a fast but fairly uncomfortable ride, which is great if you are actually planning to race. Add in differences in body geometry - women tend to have shorter torso vs. legs (or so my wife tells me) and a couple other physical factors that influence saddle design - and it is easy to wind up with something that doesn't make you happy in the long term. Without knowing what you want to do, I would aim for flexibility in application, not the slickest rig out there. <br /><br />So think about what type of riding you want to do, which will determine frame geometry, then budget will determine frame material and components. I don't think brands matter a whole lot these days, unless you are looking for something fairly distinct in purpose or highly customized. Trek/Giant/Specialized/Bianchi/etc./etc. all make great bikes, so I would recommend the brand carried by the reputable local bike shop where the people really talk bikes. You can tell which shop to go to because the lunatic fringe cyclists like to hang out there and drink coffee with the "wrenches" :) . There is no real performance difference that matters to 95% of cyclists when you compare components between a $1500 bike and a $5000 bike - you get lighter weight, higher level of polish, maybe crisper feel (maybe not!). A $500 budget does mean a lot of compromises, so I think you are in the right price range for a bike that could keep you happy for years, unless you get addicted to bikes, in which case you'll wind up like me (drinking coffee with the wrenches). Happy to try to help guide you.<br /><br /><!--quoteo(post=58808:date=Mar 8 2006, 10:16 PM:name=ebolton)--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(ebolton @ Mar 8 2006, 10:16 PM) </b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--quoteo--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--quotec-->I've actually got one w/in an hour of home, but I'm not sure I can ever get there. I do a lot of fixed gear riding, however, including for our local 10m TT (w/hills! RPMs avg 95, but range from 50 to 135!)<br /><br />--------------------<br /><br />John McClellan<br />Concord, MA </td></tr></table><br /><br />John, where is there a velodrome within an hour of Concord? I admit I haven't looked for one in a while, but last I knew the closest one was Kissena in New York City.<br /><br />I'm less than 50 mi from you in NH. Member of CCB and NSC, usually ride with the faster NSC guys.<br /><br />Ed<br /> </td></tr></table><br />Ed,<br />Londonderry. I've never been there, but some folks at the Concord TT told me about it.<br /><a href="http://www.leadcycling.com/index.html" target="_blank">http://www.leadcycling.com/index.html</a><br />I'm really interested in trying it out - too many things to do, too little time!<br />
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