500m Training

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Training

Postby [old] rspenger » March 10th, 2006, 9:17 pm

<!--quoteo(post=58972:date=Mar 10 2006, 05:02 PM:name=chickenlegs)--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(chickenlegs @ Mar 10 2006, 05:02 PM) </b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>i am going against the grain by saying this, but i suggest doing long pieces at steady low rate.<br />by long i mean over 10 km and by steady low rate i mean around 21 spm covering about 10 m/stroke.<br />no straps.<br />while you row focus on improving a particular aspect of your technique (fast hands away from the body, quick at teh catch, relaxed shoulders, etc.).<br />since you are a 100m sprinter you probably have good power and explosivness.<br />rowing long, steady and focus will improve your efficiency (which is very important when you are rating over 40 spm in a 500 m sprint) and the endurance to sustain 1'20"s for the whole distance.<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I concur wholeheartedly. Chickenlegs may have been kidding around in his earlier post, but this one is right on target. Built up your endurance with longer pieces and work on your technique. If you have questions about your technique, check out the C2 video or Xeno's videos. Alternate with some occasional interval training - several 500 m pieces with 2 minute (active) breaks - all preceded by a warmup of 20 minutes or so and a long cool down afterwards.<br /><br />Bob S.
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Postby [old] braveheart007 » March 11th, 2006, 1:37 am

<br /> :o <br />I can see where you are coming from as it is not so much the speed that does me as the distance. <br />When i pulled the 1:28.0 I only had 34 SPM.<br />The age old question is whether to go for more top speed or endurance.<br /><br />However, surely over 10km would mean more of an aerobic workout whereas I feel that maybe I am lacking more speed endurance? I don't profess to have much knowledge of concept training but don't these different energy systems require different training? I wouldn't advise someone lacking at the end of a 400m to run a 10km.<br /><br />Nonetheless I can see that there would be a benefit to my technique.<br /><br />Keep the advice coming! I'll keep you posted on my times. :D
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Postby [old] george nz » March 11th, 2006, 4:03 am

Speaking with a little bit of experience I have rowed a 500 in the mid 1:23's and when I did that a 500 in the 1:27's would have been a push but I could have stood up and chugged a beer straight after - BUT and it is a big BUT there is a bloody long way from mid 1:23's down to 1:20 let alone 1:18. (by the way I had little endurance when I could do this)<br /><br />If he says he can do it then I agree with Paul and cheer him on cause the guy has some real power and pace, but if he is talking trash and you encourage him to get down to 1:18 in a hurry I will bet Ben's internet dollar that he wont make past 200 to go so stand back and watch the explosion.<br /><br />Now as to how to go fast - while the advice of others here is to put in the distance work you dont say anything about the erg being your 'choice of pleasure or pain' so I am guessing this is just a 'boys having fun' thing where you are all going to sit on the erg, go hard, throw up, have some fun, toss some trash talk and grab the bragging rights ??? ..... h*** sounds fun to me.<br /><br />So lets train for that. A 500 is over in less than 90 secs so it is pretty much anaerobic (good endurance will help but not a lot), you need to get the hammer down early, get the rate up and hold on. You will die in the end and in the sort of 'comp' your talking about it may just be the guy who hangs on longest (slows down the least) gets the quickest time. So you want to practice rowing at high rates (up round 40), shorten the stroke, bump your drag up a bit tho not to much .... work on getting a good first couple of strokes to get the fan spinning then settle in for the ride. Keep it as smooth as possible as thrashing wastes energy, use your legs to drive hard, body pretty much upright, dont come all the way forward, get down to your target pace as quick as you can and hold it there (going faster will only tie you up sooner), as you get into that last 200 and your legs are tying up your stroke will shorten further so up your rate by using your arms and upper body to keep the fan spinning till the end ..... then fall off :D<br /><br />To get quicker, practice doing sub-max 500's to get your drag, start, and stroke sorted - if you dont have a lot of training time the best thing you can do is a few max tests so you know where your limit is, this way you wont go to hard and die early (this is what most of the opposition will do, guaranteed) - on the day the hype will get you to the line.<br /><br />FWIW George
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Postby [old] John Rupp » March 11th, 2006, 4:25 am

I agree with George. <br />The training for 500 meters is best to be very specific for that distance.<br /><br />A session that helped me to my 500 PB was doing 10x 40 seconds on 3 minute starts.<br />Or do 10x 200m on 3:00 starts.<br /><br />Keep up a high smooth rating and do them fast but comfortably.<br />Then you should be able to keep close to the same pace as these in the 500 meters.
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Postby [old] george nz » March 11th, 2006, 4:58 am

<!--quoteo(post=58997:date=Mar 11 2006, 09:25 PM:name=John Rupp)--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Mar 11 2006, 09:25 PM) </b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>I agree with George. <br />The training for 500 meters is best to be very specific for that distance.<br /><br />A session that helped me to my 500 PB was doing 10x 40 seconds on 3 minute starts.<br />Or do 10x 200m on 3:00 starts.<br /><br />Keep up a high smooth rating and do them fast but comfortably.<br />Then you should be able to keep close to the same pace as these in the 500 meters.<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br />Good sessions, they are going to get you through those first 3 - 5 strokes where you develop momentum but then are long enough to require you to settle into a rhythm, but not to long that you cant repeat. These are key factors, and doing the sessions as John indicates will be long enough so that by the end you also get to enjoy the pleasure of your body being really pissed of with you :D <br /><br />George
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Postby [old] hjs » March 11th, 2006, 9:30 am

<!--quoteo(post=58972:date=Mar 11 2006, 02:02 AM:name=chickenlegs)--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(chickenlegs @ Mar 11 2006, 02:02 AM) </b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>since it looks we are both logged on right now...<br /><br /><br />i am going against the grain by saying this, but i suggest doing long pieces at steady low rate.<br />by long i mean over 10 km and by steady low rate i mean around 21 spm covering about 10 m/stroke.<br />no straps.<br /><br />while you row focus on improving a particular aspect of your technique (fast hands away from the body, quick at teh catch, relaxed shoulders, etc.).<br /><br />since you are a 100m sprinter you probably have good power and explosivness.<br />rowing long, steady and focus will improve your efficiency (which is very important when you are rating over 40 spm in a 500 m sprint) and the endurance to sustain 1'20"s for the whole distance.<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br />???????????????? very strange advice. The man is a 100 m sprinter , doing this he wil distroy his sprinting abileties.<br /><br />No try to improve yourv technic. Do hard strenght training. Squat, deadlift. And do short interval training. <br />200/500 meters. thta would improve you the most in short time.<br /><br /><br /><!--quoteo(post=58991:date=Mar 11 2006, 06:37 AM:name=braveheart007)--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(braveheart007 @ Mar 11 2006, 06:37 AM) </b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>:o <br />I can see where you are coming from as it is not so much the speed that does me as the distance. <br />When i pulled the 1:28.0 I only had 34 SPM.<br />The age old question is whether to go for more top speed or endurance.<br /><br />However, surely over 10km would mean more of an aerobic workout whereas I feel that maybe I am lacking more speed endurance? I don't profess to have much knowledge of concept training but don't these different energy systems require different training? I wouldn't advise someone lacking at the end of a 400m to run a 10km.<br /><br />Nonetheless I can see that there would be a benefit to my technique.<br /><br />Keep the advice coming! I'll keep you posted on my times. :D<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />If your rating was only 34 you probably did use the hole slide. For a 500 meter you should use a shorter stroke(not the hole slide) and rate much higher. For a 10.4 sprinter ratings in the 45/50 are easely doable.<br />
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Postby [old] PaulS » March 11th, 2006, 9:37 am

<!--quoteo(post=58998:date=Mar 11 2006, 12:58 AM:name=george nz)--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(george nz @ Mar 11 2006, 12:58 AM) </b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--quoteo(post=58997:date=Mar 11 2006, 09:25 PM:name=John Rupp)--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Mar 11 2006, 09:25 PM) </b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>I agree with George. <br />The training for 500 meters is best to be very specific for that distance.<br /><br />A session that helped me to my 500 PB was doing 10x 40 seconds on 3 minute starts.<br />Or do 10x 200m on 3:00 starts.<br /><br />Keep up a high smooth rating and do them fast but comfortably.<br />Then you should be able to keep close to the same pace as these in the 500 meters.<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br />Good sessions, they are going to get you through those first 3 - 5 strokes where you develop momentum but then are long enough to require you to settle into a rhythm, but not to long that you cant repeat. These are key factors, and doing the sessions as John indicates will be long enough so that by the end you also get to enjoy the pleasure of your body being really pissed of with you :D <br /><br />George<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Careful to note however that 200m in 40sec is right about Johns 500m PB pace (1:40), so for him these workouts really are about the same thing. The 200m is by far the easier one for faster folks, but it would be the harder one for slower folks. So it may need to be adjusted to fit the specific target pace.<br />
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Postby [old] hjs » March 11th, 2006, 9:58 am

<!--quoteo(post=59009:date=Mar 11 2006, 02:37 PM:name=PaulS)--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Mar 11 2006, 02:37 PM) </b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--quoteo(post=58998:date=Mar 11 2006, 12:58 AM:name=george nz)--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(george nz @ Mar 11 2006, 12:58 AM) </b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><br /><br />Good sessions, they are going to get you through those first 3 - 5 strokes where you develop momentum but then are long enough to require you to settle into a rhythm, but not to long that you cant repeat. These are key factors, and doing the sessions as John indicates will be long enough so that by the end you also get to enjoy the pleasure of your body being really pissed of with you :D <br /><br />George<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Careful to note however that 200m in 40sec is right about Johns 500m PB pace (1:40), so for him these workouts really are about the same thing. The 200m is by far the easier one for faster folks, but it would be the harder one for slower folks. So it may need to be adjusted to fit the specific target pace.<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />10 x 200 rest 3 min in 500 meter pace would be 2000 meters in that pace. Not a bad training. Paul<br />But you right he should also do somewhat longer training. mayby a 1000/750/500/300 training. <br />rest 5 min, pace increesing and starting at about 500m pace plus 8/10 sec for the 1000 meters.<br />or 300/500/750/500/300 or 10 times 1 min on 2 min off<br /><br />This is a nice link http: //www.concept2.co.uk/docs/rugby_training_guide.pdf <br />for sprinttraining
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Postby [old] braveheart007 » March 11th, 2006, 2:32 pm

Thanks for all your help.<br /><br />I find this site actually quite motivating, its great to hear so many different views on training, and some undoubtedly brilliant adice. You don't get anything like this in athletics, 100m anyway, knowledge is sacred to some of those guys. Its hard enough to get the time of day!<br /><br />Sorry if I've been a bit misleading but it isn't a one of race here, it is an ergo ladder that is up in the gym with the time slowly getting faster by each one of us in turn.<br /><br />I tried one of the recommended sessions today - 10x200m with 3 mins recovery. <br />I managed them in about 1.25 - 1.26 range at 40 spm though it was really tough. Not a nice session.<br /><br />I'm a bit unsure of this short stroke thing, what is the idea behind it and where do you shorten? the end or the beginning?<br /><br />
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Postby [old] John Rupp » March 11th, 2006, 2:57 pm

It's not a matter of shortening the stroke, but finding the most efficient stroke for the distance.<br /><br />The drive is where speed is gained, so a great percentage of the stroke should be given to the drive, and less time for the transitions at each end. I'm not saying this is different than for any other distance, but it can be, as the 500m is over soon and a lot of the recovery comes afterwards.<br /><br />If the stroke is excessively long, then the transitions at each end will take longer to reverse.<br /><br />So it's a matter of getting the most for each drive, minimizing the time for the recovery and transitions in between, and doing this as smoothly as possible.
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Postby [old] george nz » March 11th, 2006, 4:23 pm

Think of the fan like a spinning top that you have to whip to keep going, the longer time between strokes the more it slows down between strokes and the harder you have to hit it to get it back up to speed. Short quick strokes keeps the top spinning smoothly with less 'apparent' effort.<br /><br />On the erg get the fan spinning and once you do you shorten up the stroke by not coming so far forward before starting the drive, like doing partial squats rather than full squats. This means the fan does not slow as much between strokes which means the catch does not feel so heavy but the high stroke rate does have a cost as you are not getting 'rest' time on the recovery. Also by upping the stroke rate you can get the benefit of using a higher drag which (to use one of PaulS terms) gives you more credits per revolution. You can use a drag that would be 2 heavy with a full stroke as the wheel would slow to much (on the recovery) but because of the high stroke rate your are NOT letting it slow down a lot.<br /><br />My thoughts <br /><br />George
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Postby [old] braveheart007 » March 11th, 2006, 6:55 pm

Thanks George, makes total sense now, I will soon put it to the test.<br /><br /><br />What is the best drag setting for using with different distances?<br />I tend to set it to 10 all the time, I thought the other settings were for women. :lol: <br /><br />I know it must depend on size, weight, strength etc. Just wondering what the general consensus would be.<br /><br /><br />
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Postby [old] george nz » March 11th, 2006, 8:13 pm

<!--quoteo(post=59064:date=Mar 12 2006, 11:55 AM:name=braveheart007)--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(braveheart007 @ Mar 12 2006, 11:55 AM) </b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Thanks George, makes total sense now, I will soon put it to the test.<br /><br /><br />What is the best drag setting for using with different distances?<br />I tend to set it to 10 all the time, I thought the other settings were for women. :lol: <br /><br />I know it must depend on size, weight, strength etc. Just wondering what the general consensus would be.<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Look at this <a href="http://www.concept2.co.uk/guide/guide.php?article=damper_lever" target="_blank">Setting the drag</a><br /><br />And this <a href="http://www.concept2.co.uk/rower/air_resistance.php" target="_blank">Air resistance</a><br /><br /><br />I row on about 110 and I think that is round about 3 or 4 on a model D (not sure) but for a 500 would probably bump it up to about 6 (maybe 140 - 145)<br /><br />George<br /><br />
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Postby [old] braveheart007 » March 12th, 2006, 4:02 pm

Put your advice into practice, and well I must say working a treat.<br /><br />He started with 1.28.32 and saying he can do 1.18???<br />I then did 1.28.0<br />He then did 1.27.0 admittedly he looked comfortable and saying he will beat whatever I put up.<br /><br />Today I did 1.25.0 - lets see where he goes with that!<br /><br />Thanks again. :wink: <br />
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Postby [old] John Rupp » March 12th, 2006, 4:05 pm

Good for you! <br /><br />Keep up the great rowing. :D
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