What S10mps Offers Me As An Indoor Rower

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Training

Postby [old] John Rupp » March 12th, 2006, 5:02 am

The World Record for lightweights is 6:02.6 by Elia Luina and 8 meters per stroke.<br />Top lightweights row at 8 meters per stroke.<br /><br />The heavy record is 5:37.0 which was 37 spm and right around 10 meters per stroke.<br /><br />5:37.0 for the 2k is 585.3 watts<br />6:02.6 for the 2k is 469.9 watts<br /><br />5:37.0 / 6:02.6 = .80 = 80% 10 mps X .80 = 8 mps<br /><br />There appears to be a strong correlation between pace, and the optimal meters per stroke.<br /><br />585.3 / 10 = 58.53<br />469.9 / 8 = 58.73<br /><br />It looks like taking your 2k pace in watts / 58.5 will give you the optimal meters per stroke for your rowing.
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Training

Postby [old] hjs » March 12th, 2006, 5:51 am

<!--quoteo(post=59088:date=Mar 12 2006, 10:02 AM:name=John Rupp)--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Mar 12 2006, 10:02 AM) </b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>The World Record for lightweights is 6:02.6 by Elia Luina and 8 meters per stroke.<br />Top lightweights row at 8 meters per stroke.<br /><br />The heavy record is 5:37.0 which was 37 spm and right around 10 meters per stroke.<br /><br />5:37.0 for the 2k is 585.3 watts<br />6:02.6 for the 2k is 469.9 watts<br /><br />5:37.0 / 6:02.6 = .80 = 80% 10 mps X .80 = 8 mps<br /><br />There appears to be a strong correlation between pace, and the optimal meters per stroke.<br /><br />585.3 / 10 = 58.53<br />469.9 / 8 = 58.73<br /><br />It looks like taking your 2k pace in watts / 58.5 will give you the optimal meters per stroke for your rowing.<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br />John We should not look at a few examples but take the average of about the best 25 in each categorie. This would give a better view than this.
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Postby [old] tap » March 12th, 2006, 11:37 am

Let's try John's numbers with my 2k row in January...<br /><br />2000 meters in 7:20.6 (440.6 seconds) with an SPM of 28 and a wattage of 262.<br /><br /> (2000 meters)<br />---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- = 9.73 meters / stroke<br />(440.6 seconds) / (60 seconds per minute) * (28 strokes per minute)<br /><br /><br />John's suggested optimal stroke rate: 262 / 58.5 = 4.48 meters / stroke<br /><br />I think the numbers speak for themselves.<br /><br />- Tom
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Postby [old] PaulS » March 12th, 2006, 11:47 am

<!--quoteo(post=59087:date=Mar 12 2006, 12:18 AM:name=jamesg)--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(jamesg @ Mar 12 2006, 12:18 AM) </b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>I think the 10m idea is important in at least two cases: for beginners, as it says clearly that the object of the exercise is to move the boat so now go 10m as a minimum but attainable standard, and for racing where it says that however desperate we are, efficiency still counts: a cut-off point, beyond which higher ratings and shorter travel would lead us into diminishing returns. <br /><br />In both cases it gives coach plenty of shore-side candidates. When boats are expensive and in short supply, he can't just load them up, shove off and see what happens, so the tighter the prior erg benchmarks the better. He stays warmer and dryer too. Style comes later, let's start by weeding out those who won't or can't pull.<br /><br />That we have to move the boat is not immediately clear on the erg, so someone some day has to say it. Recently in a hotel I saw a PM3 memory, where the last 20 "work-outs" were all < 50W, rating 30... <br /><br />Looking at training plans, whether I, W, Gold, or Xeno, they say that 90%+ of work is done at 18-22. <br />10m/st at these ratings mean pace 2:50 to 2:15; 75 to 140W. Most of us could do these pace/rating combinations not just strapless but slideless too, and would not think of them as "training". I'd be glad to, any excuse for not pulling hard is a good one, I just have to convince myself. Even in my decrepit old age I pull 11 to 12 m/st @20 for 30-40' without my HR going over 150. Nothing wrong with this: 10 is a minimum, and I don't think coach will throw me out because I moved the boat too far. But surprise surprise he would if he had plenty of candidates who moved it even further.<br /><br />When I raced 2ks, albeit slowly, my time was around 7:10 @27-28: 200 strokes, 10m/st. My Wattage was 270-280W: 10W-minutes/stroke. At the time I'd never heard of either index. <br /><br />Then we start going where angels fear to tread. I'm 188*90kg*65y. Should I tell others with different coordinates to do what I do? We all have our standards, and if our personal ones have worked in the past, why not? We can always break the rules when the need arises.<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />All well and good James, however it appears to be that you are implying that if one trained at 10MPS, they are somehow not as able to produce more meters/stroke at lower rates, when in fact it will be quite easy for them to do so. Perhaps you could give this experiment a try. Do your 30'R20 pace that has your HR remaining under 150 one day, and then try the exact same pace at 10MPS on another and see what happens. On "rate based" theory the higher rate is going to make it easier for you, isn't it? Let's see how that works out. You self admittedly race at about 10MPS which illustrates quite nicely that "more DPS does not mean more work", since you can go to higher DPS for long periods of time, as long as the time between drives is long enough and the pace is slow enough.<br /><br />I think the attractiveness of the low rate training is that the paces are slow enough that showing a 1 second improvement is much easier due to the exponential progression in power required for pace change. This sounds strange, but people like to "go hard" when the pace is easy, but can't do the same when the pace gets faster, and the same power improvement doesn't give as much pace improvement. It all depends on how the athlete is motivated. IMO, the place for low rate, high ratio, training is in a boat where there is at least some feel being gained during the recovery in how to get run, but it's just an exercise, and when the crew needs to go fast, they will decrease the ratio and hopefully be able to stay together. The crews that maintain DPS while brining the rate up are the ones that win.<br /><br />Studies have also shown that as harder drives are taken, the force profile normalizes toward the more optimum shape. This makes sense in that as our body must work, it will work out an effective way to be used as we reach our limits, this is another good argument for "hard, low rate" strokes, but it ignores the training of the recovery sequence in a well timed manner.<br /><br />Still no guesses as to Rate and Pace? 8) <br />
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Postby [old] hjs » March 12th, 2006, 11:50 am

<!--quoteo(post=59104:date=Mar 12 2006, 04:37 PM:name=tap)--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(tap @ Mar 12 2006, 04:37 PM) </b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Let's try John's numbers with my 2k row in January...<br /><br />2000 meters in 7:20.6 (440.6 seconds) with an SPM of 28 and a wattage of 262.<br /><br /> (2000 meters)<br />---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- = 9.73 meters / stroke<br />(440.6 seconds) / (60 seconds per minute) * (28 strokes per minute)<br /><br /><br />John's suggested optimal stroke rate: 262 / 58.5 = 4.48 meters / stroke<br /><br />I think the numbers speak for themselves.<br /><br />- Tom<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I think he will advice another rate :D 9.73/8 * 28 = rate 34
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Postby [old] seat5 » March 12th, 2006, 12:38 pm

This is probably the most useful thread going on the forum right now, thanks, George!<br /><br />I've been rowing strapless and 10MPS for a few years, now, except for some special low rate workouts occasionally (like the CTC 30R20 challenge), and except for interval or sprint workouts that are part of a the CTC challenge. I definitely have more trouble with strapless rowing at faster paces and higher rates. Anything around 1:59 and slower is fine at S10MPS but my 10MPS shrinks to something in the 9's the shorter and faster the piece is until I end up rating somewhere around 40 for 250 or 300 meter thrashes. I haven't attempted all out short sprints without straps and now I'm going to try and see what happens.<br /><br />Great video clip, Paul, I wish I could make my technique improve just by watching it. No guess from me on pace. Rate would be much easier if I only had a watch with a second hand around somewhere! Just from watching it you seem to be rowing at a steady rate. I would guess you are changing the pace by changing how hard you are driving on each stroke?
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Postby [old] dennish » March 12th, 2006, 1:34 pm

Since living in the colder climes usually necessitates time on the erg and I was a poor "boat mover" I had to do something on the erg to see if I couldn't rectify or at least make improvement on my ability to move a boat. I have been working with 10mps for 17 months now and am pleased with the results. Getting back on the water will be sort of an acid test as to what has been gained. What 10mps has brought to my game is patience (in a boat or on the erg it didn't matter I was usually around 32-34 rate) and a better understanding of what each action and reaction does to a boat. At first I was somewhat of a slave to the numbers on the mointor, but with experience with strapless rowing on the zeroes I got much more into how is should feel and look than staying absolute on the numbers. Once that milestone was reached it was very pleasing to know that without really wanting to be focused on the monitor numbers they were coming as they were supposed to anyway. I have also found that I can now raise the rate strapless to 32/33 and hit the occasional 1:39/1:40. Don't know it any of this is helpful but more probably just some learning curve observations. dennis
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Postby [old] John Rupp » March 12th, 2006, 1:43 pm

<!--quoteo(post=59104:date=Mar 12 2006, 07:37 AM:name=tap)--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(tap @ Mar 12 2006, 07:37 AM) </b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--quotec-->John's suggested optimal stroke rate: 262 / 58.5 = 4.48 meters / stroke<br /><br />I think the numbers speak for themselves.<br /><br />- Tom<br /> </td></tr></table><br />Yes Tom,<br /><br />They show you've been overstroking.<br /><br /><!--quoteo(post=59109:date=Mar 12 2006, 08:38 AM:name=seat5)--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(seat5 @ Mar 12 2006, 08:38 AM) </b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--quotec-->This is probably the most useful thread going on the forum right now </td></tr></table><br /><br />Thank you for pointing this out Carla. :D <br /><br /><br />
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Postby [old] NavigationHazard » March 12th, 2006, 3:08 pm

<!--quoteo(post=59088:date=Mar 12 2006, 04:02 AM:name=John Rupp)--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Mar 12 2006, 04:02 AM) </b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>The World Record for lightweights is 6:02.6 by Elia Luina and 8 meters per stroke.<br />Top lightweights row at 8 meters per stroke....<br /><br />(snip)<br /><br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Someone should tell Elia, then. I sat quite literally in front of him in Boston and watched him win in 6:06.7, which he rowed at a average stroke rating of about 35. If you throw out the start, where he went out in what looked like short strokes at a very high rate, and the finishing 150m, where he was trading rate for pace, his 'cruising' rate was about 34 spm. I know you don't like to believe me, so here's proof:<br /><br /><img src="http://www.concept2.co.uk/wirc/graphs2006/3_elia_luini.png" border="0" alt="IPB Image" /><br /><br />If you look in particular at the middle 1000m, which he did in 3:04.5 (actual elapsed time, not an estimate), you'll see his stroke rating over it was at most 34.5. Thus he spent the majority of his championship row pulling at least 9.4 meters/stroke, and probably closer to 10. <br /><br /><!--quoteo(post=59088:date=Mar 12 2006, 04:02 AM:name=John Rupp)--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Mar 12 2006, 04:02 AM) </b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><br />...<br /><br />There appears to be a strong correlation between pace, and the optimal meters per stroke.<br /><br />...<br /><br />It looks like taking your 2k pace in watts / 58.5 will give you the optimal meters per stroke for your rowing.<br /><br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Well, Luini's pace in Boston was about 454.3w. By your formula, 454.3w/58.5 yields 7.76 mps and suggests that his "optimum" average stroke rating for his 6:06.7 should have been 42.9. <br /><br />Somehow I don't think he'd agree. <br /><br />
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Postby [old] mpukita » March 12th, 2006, 3:17 pm

<!--quoteo(post=59119:date=Mar 12 2006, 02:08 PM:name=NavigationHazard)--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(NavigationHazard @ Mar 12 2006, 02:08 PM) </b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Well, Luini's pace in Boston was about 454.3w. By your formula, 454.3w/58.5 yields 7.76 mps and suggests that his "optimum" average stroke rating for his 6:06.7 should have been 42.9. <br /><br />Somehow I don't think he'd agree.<br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Ouch! That would leave a mark Nav ... if I've got to row at 40+SPM to row "optimum" ... I'll go back to running and biking only. Of course, I guess John's calculations could be erroneous.<br /><br /> :?
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Training

Postby [old] John Rupp » March 12th, 2006, 3:26 pm

As Luini's stroke rate shown by the green line went lower, his pace got slower. As his stroke rate shown by the blue line went higher, his pace got faster.<br /><br />The graph does an excellent job of proving my points about stroke rate and distance per stroke.<br /><br />Luini's fastest time is the World Record of 6:02.6, in which he averaged 8 meters per stroke, and averaged 41.4 strokes per minute.
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Training

Postby [old] rspenger » March 12th, 2006, 4:08 pm

His sprint did not seem to have gained him very much. About 1 second of pace for a rate increase of about 3 spm.
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Postby [old] NavigationHazard » March 12th, 2006, 4:09 pm

No, the graph does an excellent job of showing<br /><br />1) that your oft-repeated claims about Luini's preferred race ratings are at best hyperbolic -- in Boston he raced at an overall average of maybe 36 spm, which is 5.5 spm below the 41.5 you say he did for his record. <br /><br />2) that to obsess over average ratings and paces can be misleading over 2k-- in Luini's case they tend to obscure both a quick start and a no-holds-barred finish while ignoring his usual strategy of finding a 'cruising pace' in the middle;<br /><br />3) that the current world record holder and reigning WIRC champion did the bulk of his race in Boston at something like 7 spm lower than what you say he did in setting his record (BTW, do you have anything concrete to back up your assertion about the rating for it?). Something is out of kilter, and I don't think it's Luini;<br /><br />4) yes the pace slowed as the rating went down to 'cruising speed' for the middle of the 2k. Luini typically rows that way -- see his 2002 splits, if you don't believe me. I guarantee that he does it because he can't sustain for 6 minutes the "optimum" pace/rating combination you seem to think he should.
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Postby [old] TomR/the elder » March 12th, 2006, 4:46 pm

10 MPS seems too slow at lower rates and too fast as higher rates. I'm sure there is something I don't understand about it, but if I do a 60+ minute session at 21 SPM, 10 MPS isn't challenging. If I do AT workouts at 25-26 SPM, I can't quite hold 10 MPS, and w/ race-pace workouts at 30 SPM, 10 MPS is an idle dream. So I just don't know how to make the protocol work, except in a narrow band of rates.<br /><br />This thread did cause me to do a quick calculation of my MPS while racing at the CrashBs.<br /><br />In 2003, I rowed a 6.59.8, averaging approx 32 SPM, for approx 224 strokes, or 8.9 MPS.<br /><br />In 2006, I rowed a 7.28.9, averaging approx 30 SPM, for approx 224 strokes, or 8.9 MPS. <br /><br />To go sub-7 again, all I have to do is row 2 more strokes per minute for 7 minutes. Why is that so difficult?<br /><br />Tom
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Postby [old] george nz » March 12th, 2006, 5:18 pm

If I might interject on the argument about WR holders and their ratings and dps (maybe a discussion for another thread) , this thread is about TRAINING methodologies for the average erger who wants to get better. <br /><br />As PaulS has said time and time again and been ignored just as many times, the s10ps is about training, and when you race you strap in and do what is takes to go as fast as you can for 2000m, BUT it is hoped that the good habits ingrained in training will be carried thru and you willo perform much more efficiently with a smoother stoke.<br /><br /><br />George
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