Attention owners of Model D and Model E Indoor Rowers

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Postby johnlvs2run » May 2nd, 2007, 10:34 pm

The D does sag big time in the middle. I have considered shoring it up with a box, or t-bolts and 2x4's but didn't want to go to all that much trouble. At least it is working for now.

I'm a bit miffed that Concept2 didn't notify me about discovering the issue and remedy when discovered, as they know well I had the ongoing problem with my erg.

However, at this point the main thing is make sure the problem gets properly fixed. I will be happy for the erg to be more structurally sound then it has been.
Last edited by johnlvs2run on May 2nd, 2007, 10:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby johnlvs2run » May 2nd, 2007, 10:42 pm

This might be a good time for me to plug the model J erg. :wink:

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Re: Web site

Postby PaulS » May 3rd, 2007, 8:11 am

PaulS wrote:
c2bill wrote:There are a lot of questions and some mis-information being posted on the forum concerning the fatigue issue. For the most accurate information please visit http://www.concept2.com/notice.

We're directing inquiries to the website to make sure that all Concept2 customers (not only forum visitors) receive the most accurate information possible.

-bill patton

Broken Link with the ending "."

Fatigue Information.


And now for the real information rather than silly speculation. Sheesh guys, let C2 handle the issue, I've never known them to be less than excellent in such things in the past, no reason to yet to start thinking otherwise.

Metal Fatigue Information.

I'm no agent of C2, but I have been a customer since 1983 and have owned all the models, in fact still have an example of each one except the Model D (just never got very attached to that one for some reason, so sold both of them). Get the RPMs high enough on any of the machines and there is a bt of shimmy, rare to happen in the normal range of DF's (95+) but if artificially low DF's are used, it's not uncommon and can reach some pretty interesting levels if one can pull quite hard. :wink:
Erg on,
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Postby neilgunton » May 3rd, 2007, 9:21 am

This is not ok. When I talked to Concept2 yesterday, the guy I spoke with said that they would only be replacing the affected units in "extreme circumstances", which means if your machine is not showing actual signs of cracking now, then the best you can hope for is a patch kit. In my opinion, Concept2 is handling this extremely badly. People used to have supreme confidence in the strength and reliability of these machines, but that reputation is going to be in serious jeapardy after this debacle. Would you buy a second hand machine that was from the faulty batch, patch or no patch? I certainly would not. Or if I did, I would expect a significant markdown in price.

It's really simple: If you have a fundamental design flaw, then you do a product recall and replace the affected part. You don't just tell people to be happy with a do-it-yourself hack.

Right now the UK Concept2 forums appear to be down, but the sentiment over there appears to be much more in line with the random people I have shown this to, rather than this bland "everything's ok" attitude I am seeing over here. The correct response here is to be pissed off that they are not stepping up to the plate.

Honestly, I am starting to think that they are not posting here on the forums because they are afraid of legal liability ramifications. That's the only reason I can think of why they would be so tight lipped about the replacement issue. People have been talking about this for the last couple of days on both forums, and all we have seen in the way of "official" response is a terse assertion that there is a lot of misinformation, and a link to the DIY patch page.

Sorry, but that is just arrogant and complete B.S... I have not drunk the Kool-Aid, so I don't feel any particular need to bow and scrape before the Concept2 gods. I am simply a recent customer, and I want to be excited and pleased that I bought into something worthwhile. But right now, there is a sour taste in my mouth. I don't exactly have confidence any more that Concept2 is going to truly support me should the machine have further "design issues" down the road... who knows if the patch they are pushing will really work? They weren't aware of the original issue, after all, until things started to break. So obviously they are not omniscient when it comes to knowing on the engineering side of things what the stress limits are. Now I don't really have a very confident feeling in this new machine, which actually should be arriving today. That is a real shame. Oh well.

/Neil

p.s. What's the deal with the UK forums anyway? I posted on there earlier this morning, and now it just says "phpBB: Critical error, could not connect to database". Hmmm.
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Postby c2bill » May 3rd, 2007, 11:04 am

As you might imagine, between this issue and the ranking roll over, we’ve been pretty busy... in reading through the various posts here and in the UK i wanted to take a moment to try to answer as many of the concerns expressed - but please understand - we’re trying to make the web page www.concept2.com/notice the central location of information - so that we don’t end up with lots of versions of the same answer.



It is true that to date we’ve seen only a very small number of machines show any sort of cracks at all in the field - and an even smaller number actually fail. That said - when our in house testing (which simulates a 600 pound person rowing roughly 300 strokes per minute) showed that there was a potential problem we immediately started working on a method to reinforce the affected area. The steel plates that are described on the notice page have been tested relentlessly by our 600 pound robot tester - and we’ve found the reinforced machines to be as strong if not stronger than any other machine we’ve made. These steel plates are now being installed on new machines - and are being made available to affected owners as the reinforcement kit. If you own an affected machine and use the kit, your machine will be as strong as any other machine we’ve ever sold.



We’re also pulling (in the US and Canada) a list of every known purchaser of an affected machine and sending out an email and print letter with more details. Those of you who have been involved with concept2 for some time know how passionately we support our customers - we’ve been working round the clock to get a good solution going.

If you own an affected machine, please read the notice page - and then if you have more questions please feel free to contact concept2 directly as we may not be able to answer every question in every post here on the forum.

Thanks for your understanding and support.

-bill patton
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Postby neilgunton » May 3rd, 2007, 11:14 am

Bill,

From my phone conversation with the tech guy at Concept2 yesterday (didn't get his name), I was given to understand that new machines will not have the plates pre-installed, but rather that the design had been altered so that they are unnecessary. Now you are saying that new machines are in fact shipping with the reinforcement kit? Has the underlying design been changed or not?

Thanks,

/Neil
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Postby PaulS » May 3rd, 2007, 11:34 am

"I have not drunk the Kool-Aid, so I don't feel any particular need to bow and scrape before the Concept2 gods."
FFS! :twisted:

Neither do those of us who have been using their products for the last 25+ years, and had all solvable issued solved well. Perhaps being a new customer doesn't leave you in a good position to be making the various, and convoluted, statements that have lead to nearly ALL of the misinformation that has been spread so far. How about assuming that a company that has been known for exceptional customer service will likely continue to look after their customers interests, which are, in fact, their own interests.

When your machine arrives today, I suppose you will be the first to know whether or not there is a design change or if the reinforcing pieces ARE the design change. But on a more serious note, if this is all it takes to shake your confidence in a piece of equipement or company, then fault yourself for not putting in good research. :roll:
Erg on,
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Postby johnlvs2run » May 3rd, 2007, 11:35 am

c2bill wrote:The steel plates that are described on the notice page have been tested relentlessly by our 600 pound robot tester - and we’ve found the reinforced machines to be as strong if not stronger than any other machine we’ve made. These steel plates are now being installed on new machines - and are being made available to affected owners as the reinforcement kit. If you own an affected machine and use the kit, your machine will be as strong as any other machine we’ve ever sold.

We’re also pulling (in the US and Canada) a list of every known purchaser of an affected machine and sending out an email and print letter with more details. Those of you who have been involved with concept2 for some time know how passionately we support our customers - we’ve been working round the clock to get a good solution going.


Bill Patton,

Thank you for this information. I have not received any email from C2. Yes, Concept2 has always been right on the ball as to excellent service and long lasting quality of the ergs.

If I understand correctly, installation of the steel plates from the kits will result in the same identical strength as compared to the steel plates you are now installing on new machines. That is good to know. I will call this morning to get the plates and install them.

John
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Postby johnlvs2run » May 3rd, 2007, 11:45 am

neilgunton wrote:Right now the UK Concept2 forums appear to be down, but the sentiment over there appears to be much more in line with the random people I have shown this to, rather than this bland "everything's ok" attitude I am seeing over here. The correct response here is to be pissed off that they are not stepping up to the plate.


Neil,

Your messages are much appreciated. From experience, Concept2 has quite a low key method of responding, and is very slow to initiate any changes as proposed by their customers. However, and as Paul has stated, they are quick and thorough about making sure the ergs are of top quality and keep in great operating condition as intended. Concept2 is definitely a top notch company and I do have confidence in them standing up for their products.

Through the years, I have had many opportunities to talk with various members of the Concept2 staff, and 100 percent of the time every single person has been 100 percent helpful and constructive. I do understand your frustration, but have confidence that C2 is going to resolve the issue satisfactorily for everyone. Also I am interested in if your machine has the same plates as the fix kit. I hope you enjoy your new machine and have good experiences when using it.

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Re: Web site

Postby johnlvs2run » May 3rd, 2007, 11:47 am

PaulS wrote:still have an example of each one except the Model D (just never got very attached to that one for some reason


Hi Paul,

Thanks for your comments. May I ask what you didn't like as much about the model D as compared to the others, and do you like the model E better? Is the model E more stable with less shimmy? Details would be helpful as I might consider going that route too.

Thanks and all the best,

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Postby neilgunton » May 3rd, 2007, 12:00 pm

PaulS said:
"Neither do those of us who have been using their products for the last 25+ years, and had all solvable issued solved well. Perhaps being a new customer doesn't leave you in a good position to be making the various, and convoluted, statements that have lead to nearly ALL of the misinformation that has been spread so far. How about assuming that a company that has been known for exceptional customer service will likely continue to look after their customers interests, which are, in fact, their own interests.

When your machine arrives today, I suppose you will be the first to know whether or not there is a design change or if the reinforcing pieces ARE the design change. But on a more serious note, if this is all it takes to shake your confidence in a piece of equipement or company, then fault yourself for not putting in good research."

Paul,

Kindly point out exactly what I have said that turned out to be misinformation. I don't care to engage in flame wars here (been there, done that, never satisfactory for either party). You're welcome to your own opinion about how Concept2 has been handling this. But please refrain from making aspersions about me which are clearly untrue. I have posted nothing that isn't either self-evident from Concept2's own postings to date, or else asking questions that I think any concerned customer would ask given the circumstances and lack of response / contradictory information from the company.

I have had two phone calls with them, and on the first call I was told that they would in fact replace the part in question for any customer who desired it. Then, on the second phone call, the guy told me that this wasn't the case - they would only replace the parts in "extreme circumstances". He also told me that the newer machines will not be shipping with the reinforcement kit installed, but would rather have an updated design. Now Bill's post suggests this isn't the case. So now I am, understandably I think, more than a little confused.

Every single (uninvolved) person I have described this situation to has had the immediate reaction that this should be a product recall, not a DIY patch kit. I still hold that view, despite the most recent assurances from Bill that the kit makes the machines stronger than ever... the fact is that they didn't know about the issue previously, so who's to say that the kit doesn't introduce some other form of stress/fatigue that doesn't become apparent until somewhere far down the line?

Obviously the machines made prior to August of last year had a different design; they should revisit the design, replace the affected units and be done with this fiasco.

/Neil
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Postby Nosmo » May 3rd, 2007, 1:37 pm

My $0.02:

1) A product recall is necessary if the product is dangerous. An erg sagging is not dangerous. Even breaking is not particularly dangerous, but it sounds like it will give a fair amount of warning. (Having broken two forks while riding a bicycle--one at 35 mph--I do know what dangerous is.)
2) Sounds like things were confused at C2. Not the best but understandable considering that this issue just came up and they were figuring out how to deal with it. This does not sound typical of C2
3) There is nothing wrong with a patch that makes the machine just as strong as any other. If all the D's were that way from day 1 nobody would have cared.

And I do have one of the affected machines.

But I do have one question. Does the patch put the feet any further apart? It is already a little wide for my tastes.

Your humble Kool-Aid drinker,
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Postby PaulS » May 3rd, 2007, 1:45 pm

neilgunton wrote:PaulS said:
"Neither do those of us who have been using their products for the last 25+ years, and had all solvable issued solved well. Perhaps being a new customer doesn't leave you in a good position to be making the various, and convoluted, statements that have lead to nearly ALL of the misinformation that has been spread so far. How about assuming that a company that has been known for exceptional customer service will likely continue to look after their customers interests, which are, in fact, their own interests.

When your machine arrives today, I suppose you will be the first to know whether or not there is a design change or if the reinforcing pieces ARE the design change. But on a more serious note, if this is all it takes to shake your confidence in a piece of equipement or company, then fault yourself for not putting in good research."

Paul,

Kindly point out exactly what I have said that turned out to be misinformation. I don't care to engage in flame wars here (been there, done that, never satisfactory for either party). You're welcome to your own opinion about how Concept2 has been handling this. But please refrain from making aspersions about me which are clearly untrue. I have posted nothing that isn't either self-evident from Concept2's own postings to date, or else asking questions that I think any concerned customer would ask given the circumstances and lack of response / contradictory information from the company.

I have had two phone calls with them, and on the first call I was told that they would in fact replace the part in question for any customer who desired it. Then, on the second phone call, the guy told me that this wasn't the case - they would only replace the parts in "extreme circumstances". He also told me that the newer machines will not be shipping with the reinforcement kit installed, but would rather have an updated design. Now Bill's post suggests this isn't the case. So now I am, understandably I think, more than a little confused.

Every single (uninvolved) person I have described this situation to has had the immediate reaction that this should be a product recall, not a DIY patch kit. I still hold that view, despite the most recent assurances from Bill that the kit makes the machines stronger than ever... the fact is that they didn't know about the issue previously, so who's to say that the kit doesn't introduce some other form of stress/fatigue that doesn't become apparent until somewhere far down the line?

Obviously the machines made prior to August of last year had a different design; they should revisit the design, replace the affected units and be done with this fiasco.

/Neil


The bolded parts above are what I was referring to. You have heard two, or more, versions, and they are contradictory. While you may choose, and not unrightly so, to place the blame on C2 and their differing information to you, is it truly good vetting of the information to go with contradictory things before the facts are truly known, it seems to have caused more speculation than anything else.

There will likely be more than one "truth" that comes out regarding the complete and ultimate solution, companies make changes all the time to engineered products, hoping to make them better, and sometimes fail. How could they know it would fail before it failed? Yes, I know, "complete testing", except there is no such thing as "complete testing".

No flaming intended, apologies if you are feeling attacked. I only hope that when you are completely satisfied by the solution that C2 works out for you, and all of us who need it, you will be equally as vocal about it.

Cheers.
Erg on,
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Postby neilgunton » May 3rd, 2007, 1:58 pm

Paul,

You seem to be blaming me for reporting what I have been told by Concept2. I would posit that a forum such as this is precisely for people like us to discuss what we have heard and exchange views on matters such as the current fiasco. I am posting here because I feel that something is out of whack - something is wrong, and it needs to be addressed by people speaking up, not toeing the party line. So I am reporting what I have found out. I think I did more than most, actually bothering to call the company and get their story, on two separate occasions. If I get chastised for then reporting on how that went, then, well, whatever.

Your attitude appears to be one of "shut up and don't rock the boat".

My attitude is that when I see something that isn't right, I will speak up about it.

For what it's worth, I am a website developer. I run a website called crazyguyonabike.com, which is all about bicycle touring (journals, forums etc). I am also in the process of expanding that template to allow for other topics (which will be hosted under the topicwise.com domain). One of those topics will almost certainly be something called (perhaps) "Indoor rowing", to allow people to post journals, articles and whatever else related to this world (I was going to call it Concept2, but then I thought that this might be tricky given the trademark issues, and also I want to include people using other interesting machines like the RowPerfect). So I think I will in time be contributing in a more positive way than this current thread might suggest. I don't have any kind of vendetta against Concept2, I just don't take crap from anybody, and in my view Concept2 simply isn't handling this situation well at all. My opinion is about the situation; I do intend to enjoy my machine and will indeed let people know how it goes...

Thanks,

/Neil
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Postby PaulS » May 3rd, 2007, 3:38 pm

neilgunton wrote:Paul,

Your attitude appears to be one of "shut up and don't rock the boat".

My attitude is that when I see something that isn't right, I will speak up about it.

Thanks,

/Neil


No, I've done plenty of "boat rocking" of my own, ask just about anyone who has been around for a few years.

I, unlike you perhaps, do not go rocking the boat when I am confused, as I prefer to come from a bit stronger position than "I've heard too many different stories, so there must be something terribly out of whack going on.", it just takes a bit more time and thought that way, and saves a lot of backtracking.

Come back and rock all you want if the situation is not resolved to your satisfaction. Near as I can see so far, you've only fanned the flammers (others that now seem heel bent that something is terribly amiss.), and how productive is that?

Good luck with your site, sounds like fun.

BTW - What's wrong with cool-aide? :twisted:
Erg on,
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