Sprints and Stuff- training/questions 1k and below

General discussion on Training. How to get better on your erg, how to use your erg to get better at another sport, or anything else about improving your abilities.

Sprints and Stuff- training/questions 1k and below

Postby Shawn Baker » February 21st, 2016, 7:06 pm

I'll leave this here as a location to discuss training for events 1k or less! See if we can figure what works best!
50 y/o 6'5, 243lbs

Image

Twitter @SBakerMD

Instagram shawnbaker1967
Shawn Baker
6k Poster
 
Posts: 899
Joined: February 19th, 2014, 10:01 pm

Re: Sprints and Stuff- training/questions 1k and below

Postby Shawn Baker » February 21st, 2016, 7:27 pm

So I'll start off with a few questions

1. Does focusing on the sprints confer a net benefit with regards to health in comparison to more endurance based training?

2. What is required for a good 100m, 500m, 1k - strength levels, intervals, long distance stuff

3. Role of Creatine, Beta Alanine, Sodium Bicarbonate and sprinting

4. Squats, Deadlifts, Olympic lifts- what helps the most and how much/often

5. Pacing/fly and die strategies

6. Ideal body type- NFL vs NBA vs Rugby etc..

7. Sprint competitions? (Where are they?)

8. Can a sprinter win Crash-B s?

Feel free to add more.
50 y/o 6'5, 243lbs

Image

Twitter @SBakerMD

Instagram shawnbaker1967
Shawn Baker
6k Poster
 
Posts: 899
Joined: February 19th, 2014, 10:01 pm

Re: Sprints and Stuff- training/questions 1k and below

Postby G-dub » February 21st, 2016, 7:46 pm

Awesome. I actually supplemented beta alanine the last 4 weeks to see what happened. I do think it buffered a bit. I know for sure the shorter work really benefitted. I hate taking stuff mostly because you have to remember to do it, but I think it is a possibly worthwhile supplement. This last training block for 2K I also started deadlifting again along with bent over rows. I am looking forward to putting more into both.

I've only done one 1K as a lark one day last year but it ranks higher from a percentile standpoint than any of my other distances which I've given time to. Granted, there are less posting s for that distance. But I am very curious if one can lever upwards from a power based approach that also has sufficient cardio. I admit that I still have something to prove myself at 2K. But I think 1K is a more natural fit (with all things being relative). And wonder if really maximizing that side of the coin can be a path.
Last edited by G-dub on February 21st, 2016, 8:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Glenn Walters: 5'-8" X 205 lbs. Bday 01/09/1962
Image
G-dub
Half Marathon Poster
 
Posts: 2781
Joined: September 27th, 2014, 12:52 pm
Location: Asheville, NC

Re: Sprints and Stuff- training/questions 1k and below

Postby Shawn Baker » February 21st, 2016, 8:01 pm

https://mobile.twitter.com/ylmsportscie ... 7467921409

Well if you look at studies referenced above- on has to wonder if you already have achieved a decent VO2 max base- how much do you need to do to maintain it

Glenn, I suspect I might also do my relative best at around the 1k distance

Studies on Beta Alanine I've seen suggest its utility lies in short interval repeats
50 y/o 6'5, 243lbs

Image

Twitter @SBakerMD

Instagram shawnbaker1967
Shawn Baker
6k Poster
 
Posts: 899
Joined: February 19th, 2014, 10:01 pm

Re: Sprints and Stuff- training/questions 1k and below

Postby Shawn Baker » February 21st, 2016, 8:03 pm

http://www.runnersworld.com/newswire/ol ... ce-runners

Interesting to me, especially from an orthopedic perspective
50 y/o 6'5, 243lbs

Image

Twitter @SBakerMD

Instagram shawnbaker1967
Shawn Baker
6k Poster
 
Posts: 899
Joined: February 19th, 2014, 10:01 pm

Re: Sprints and Stuff- training/questions 1k and below

Postby christopherregisryan » February 21st, 2016, 8:10 pm

Hi Shawn. I also tend to do better at sprints. That said, I improved my 1k by a decent margin (nearly a full split) this year by focusing on UT2 steady state during the base building phase of my training. My build phase used modified Pete Plan sprints done at target 1k pace (4x500m; 5x375m; 8x250m) along with the steady state work. This program has helped me PR at pretty much all distances this year. Even a 1k uses the aerobic system a fair bit so the steady state helped.

I do a 1k race (CT Indoors) and a 500m race (St. Valentine's Day Massacre) pretty much every year. These races are worked into a race program focused on 2ks. Still fun to do a sprint like that in an indoor regatta setting. Best. - Chris
christopherregisryan
2k Poster
 
Posts: 203
Joined: December 1st, 2013, 3:32 pm

Re: Sprints and Stuff- training/questions 1k and below

Postby G-dub » February 21st, 2016, 8:15 pm

As much as I would like to say something different, I don't think the LSD work I did (maybe I did it wrong) advanced me as much as it did some. Galeere and Bisqueet took off after a steady diet. I stayed the same (actually got worse for a while) But I also notice my sprint interval times are decent and improvable. I'm totally stuck on mid distance - Jim Gratton stuff like 5K. I can't hang long enough. This is kind of fun, sort of a way to talk about this stuff from the other end.

So what would a program look like that worked the other end of the stick?

Correction: when I say didn't improve I meant in the context of 2K. I was able to PB at the longer distances while doing it but when I got back to 2K training, I didn't feel better off for it.
Last edited by G-dub on February 21st, 2016, 8:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Glenn Walters: 5'-8" X 205 lbs. Bday 01/09/1962
Image
G-dub
Half Marathon Poster
 
Posts: 2781
Joined: September 27th, 2014, 12:52 pm
Location: Asheville, NC

Re: Sprints and Stuff- training/questions 1k and below

Postby G-dub » February 21st, 2016, 8:22 pm

I think there will be lots of push back related to the fact that all of this has a cardio component. Lets agree that this is understood.
Glenn Walters: 5'-8" X 205 lbs. Bday 01/09/1962
Image
G-dub
Half Marathon Poster
 
Posts: 2781
Joined: September 27th, 2014, 12:52 pm
Location: Asheville, NC

Re: Sprints and Stuff- training/questions 1k and below

Postby Bob S. » February 21st, 2016, 8:34 pm

My initial reaction to this thread was that I would read it out of curiosity, but would just be a lurker, but then it suddenly struck me that the timing is so appropriate that I just had to comment on it. With the recent addition of the 100m and 1’ events to the WR list, the very short stuff has suddenly come of age. Actually, a number of regattas appear to have been including the 500m and 1k for quite some time, especially outside the US, but there have also been a few here. The major regattas generally don’t have those, mostly because there is just not enough time to fit them in. But they are certainly easier to include than events at the other end of the distance spectrum, 5k and up. The 100m and 1’ are now also likely to get included in regatta schedules. OTW the 1k has been the mainstay for the US master’s rowing events for a long time, including the main event, the National Master’s.

Quite a change from the pre-WWII days when the 4-miler was the major distance for US collegiate rowing, especially the 150 year old Harvard/Yale race (the first US intercollegiate athletic competition) and the yearly IRA regatta at Poughkeepsie. And, course, the grandfather of all collegiate races, THE boat race as it is known in the UK, the Oxford/Cambridge 4.2 miler. I believe that one has been around over 185 years. Between WWII and 1967, the IRA was dropped to 3 miles and, in 1968, it was changed to the current 2k. In the 40s, the 2ks were sort of scorned as just being sprints, although the time taken was far, far longer that any kind of true sprint. My own first intercollegiate race was a 2k at what was billed as the “Seattle Sprints.” The less said about that race the better. We were doing OK, until the bowman caught a really bad crab, completely losing control of the oar. I was in the 2 seat and bow and I were the only ones that knew what happened. Finally the cox called “Way enough,” bow got his oar loose, and we continued to the finish, but far out of the running – 7th place out of eight and it had been a struggle to get back up to pass that one boat. Back on topic, the San Diego Crew Classic is a combined collegiate and master’s regatta consisting only of 2k races for eights. For many years, it was referred to as sprints, even in the official brochures. A couple of the C-B satellite regattas still include sprints in their titles.

Bah, enough dusty digression. The real erg sprints are now here to stay and this thread should catch it at the crest.

Bob S., who rattles on much too long.
Bob S.
Marathon Poster
 
Posts: 5142
Joined: March 16th, 2006, 12:00 pm

Re: Sprints and Stuff- training/questions 1k and below

Postby Shawn Baker » February 21st, 2016, 10:40 pm

Bob, your insight, perspective and historical anecdotes are always appreciated!!!

I don't think it is questioned that there is a aerobic part to sprint distance (with exception of 100m), the more appropriate question is how do you train that component for a 500 or a 1k- do we do endless 40min + rows at slowish pace vs say more intermediate stuff at a more stout pace- for my case I'm currently working around 2-2.5k at relatively low rates and fairly hard paces- 500m + 20 secs several days a week- am I training the aerobic side enough this way? If not does going a lot longer result in a much reduced max power output?

If we use Rob Smith as an example- his 500m time was 1:13 and his low pull was 1:02/3 what is the relative watt percentage that he needed for this distance?

What is the minimal level of strength required to go sub 14 sec in the 100m - hard to quantify- everyone has different leverages etc...- for me it's seems about a 500lb deadlift

As far as 2k goes- not sure- Ross Love is now sub 6min- while admittedly he is putting in more meters, but he has very nice max wattage to draw from (1:05ish low pull I believe)

Bob, I think you are correct about the popularity of erg sprinting increasing or I don't think concept 2 would have added the 100m/1 min category- certainly the heavy use of C2 by crossfit spurred that decision
50 y/o 6'5, 243lbs

Image

Twitter @SBakerMD

Instagram shawnbaker1967
Shawn Baker
6k Poster
 
Posts: 899
Joined: February 19th, 2014, 10:01 pm

Re: Sprints and Stuff- training/questions 1k and below

Postby Bob S. » February 21st, 2016, 10:49 pm

Shawn Baker wrote: certainly the heavy use of C2 by crossfit spurred that decision


Ah, yes. That is another factor that I had not considered. Crossfit is indeed having a big effect on erging and on the C2 company as well.
Bob S.
Marathon Poster
 
Posts: 5142
Joined: March 16th, 2006, 12:00 pm

Re: Sprints and Stuff- training/questions 1k and below

Postby hjs » February 22nd, 2016, 5:05 am

Current history.

Sprinting is much less developed compared to 2k, no real races and no other connection with olympic rowing.

As fas as I know only a handfull of people have really trained for the 500. Leo Young, Wr holder on a older model. Rob Smith,1.13, Phaller 1.13.7.

Young trained a full year for his 500 Wr. 6.6 ish 102 kg, natural sprinter. Also pulled 5.51 2k and 2.39 on the 1k. Did lots of weights and jump work.
Smith, started as a 2k guy, from 6.10, went to the shorter work, went to lots of weights and conditioning. Erged 2 times a week orso. 188 108 kg
Phaller, allround rower. Pulled 5.51 2k and 1.13, the Smallest 187, 92 ish. Also has a strong marathon pb, don,t know the time.

Lately Ross Love, 112.1, with around 6 flat, powerliftback ground. Short erg carreer still. He can tell his own story proberly.

Those in there prime.

Dirk Moller, fellow forum flyer, pulled 1.14, he did/does lot of weights. Strong big guy. Back trouble though. 125/30 ish kg on 6.5 ish. Pulled his best around age 40?

These guys all trained for the short stuff, from most on youtube vids to find. Not from Young though, pitty.

For the rest, there are fast ish 500 to find, but all from not specific trained guys. Powerlifters, strongman, crssfitters. Times from 1.13 to 1.15. They trouble for almost all was enough power, but not being able to get the full 500 done. Fly and die work.

Rob Smith started with the mad Team, wr 10 man, 100 km. Team mate Graham Benton started also, he was to begin with a faster man, taller also 6.6. He proberly could have pulled a very fast 500, but choose the 2k otw route. Got a 5.42 2k, but had more natural power than Rob Smith to begin with.

500 meter being 70/75 seconds, looking at others sports, the guys doing best, are not the best on the 100 meter. You need enough speed, but at the same time enough endurance to not die. In every sport lasting that long, the best results are set by people who finish strong. The very fast starters are not the best. Think runners, swimmers, speedskaters.

For a very good 500 you proberly also need a strong 1k. With ofcourse a strong enough lowpull/max to match.
For my training see twitter @Hjsrowing
User avatar
hjs
Marathon Poster
 
Posts: 6812
Joined: March 16th, 2006, 3:18 pm
Location: Amstelveen the netherlands

Re: Sprints and Stuff- training/questions 1k and below

Postby lindsayh » February 22nd, 2016, 5:20 am

This was actually written by Leo Young a few years ago on a UK thread during an exchange about how he did his 1:10.4.
Hopefully adds to the discussion - Leo was very disciplined guy it seems.
Sorry it is a bit long - "Navigation Hazard" is Jon Bone (NY and a legend) a huge sprinter in his time as well (60+ and comeback this year I think/hope)

To perform optimally over 500 meters, you need a base of good strength (developed primarially around lifts like deadlift variations, squat variations and seated rows, or similar movements), decent speed (best developed with very short max speed sprints on the erg at very low drag, with 2 to 3 minutes rest between sprints), as well as a very good maxVO2 (I had a maxVO2 of 7.6/L min at a HR of 158 and a weight of 90kg, prior to specifically building my strength levels and lactic power in my lead up to my 1:10.5 for 500m), but most importantly you need great lactic power as well as lactic acid tolerance.

The more muscle mass you have (I added 12kg of lean muscle to attempt my 500m), the greater your lactic power potential, which you then need to develop with max effort intervals on the erg in the 20 to 30 second range, with 5 to 10 minutes active recovery between intervals. Lactic acid tolerance (LATol), on the other hand, is then well trained with slightly longer intervals (e.g. 30 to 45 seconds) with shorter rest intervals (30 to 45 seconds), as well as also being effectively trained doing maxVO2/HR efforts.

20 to 40 minute low intensity aerobic workouts 1.5 to 2 mmol lactate) on the days in between the high intensity strength, lactic and maxVO2 workouts will aid recovery and actually indirectly help improve your lactic acid tolerance potential. However, avoid doing too many long slow distance workouts, which will have too much of a detrimental effect on your critical fast twitch fibers. it's critical to do no more than 3 high intensity workouts a week, which includes any strength training, maxVoO2, anaerobic threshold, lactic power, or lactic tolerance training. So clever programing is critical.

Do maxVO2 training by doing intervals at max HR pace (either 3 to 5 minute intervals with 3 to 5 minutes active recovery, or alternatively over 3 to 5 minutes build HR and pace to up around your anaerobic threshold or max lactate steady state pace and then sit at max HR pace for for 1.5 to 3 minutes, depending on fitness level), as well as doing some training sessions where you spend 15 to 30 minutes at your anaerobic threshold (AnT) or max lactate steady state pace (MLSS). A good combo AnT/maxVO2/LATol session is after a 15 minute warm-up, do a 20 minute effort where you build to AnT over the first 3 mintutes or so, then spend 15 minutes at AnT/MLSS pace and then go to maxVO2 (max HR) pace for the final 1.5 to 3 minutes.


Navigation Hazard wrote:- if there's one thing Leo left out, I'd say it's advice on trialling. IMO 500s are short enough that they can be repeated fairly frequently, albeit not 100% trial efforts (these need to be built up to and recovered from).

Leo Young wrote
Whilst I think that's true for most competitive rowers, as a 500 meter time trial will be far less taxing than a 2000 meter effort, if you train specifically and effectively for sprint distances, then a 500 meter time trial becomes far more taxing as your lactic power and consequently your ability to produce lactate improves.

Whilst rowers certainly tend to have superior lactic power (the maximal energy producing capacity of the lactic energy system) compared to many other endurance groups, their lactic power is nevertheless is severely blunted due to the high volume of endurance training they do. This is not to be confused with lactate tolerance (the ability to buffer lactate and tolerate high accumulated lactate levels), which is generally exceptionally well developed in rowers.

But as you incorporate substantial maximal intensity short duration intervals (5 to 30 seconds) into your training, with significant active recovery (3 to 10 minutes), as well as increasing strength training and muscle mass, whilst simultaneously reducing the volume of endurance training, then your lactic power is maximised and providing you also maintain a good maxVO2 and also develop high lactate tolerance, then your 500 meter times will improve significantly, but consequently so will the amount of pain you are potentially capable of suffering increase and the necessity for more recovery. Unfortunately, with great lactic maximal lactic power comes great pain.

When I trained specifically for 500 meters, I rarely did maximal efforts over 250 meters (of which I did many), with only a single one minute time trial in the three month lead up to my successful record attempt.

Navigation Hazard wrote: The quicker you can get down to the pace you want to be at over the bulk of the 500 the better. Thus it's to your advantage to work out a short-slide start sequence that'll allow you to trade rate for pace, and practice it until it's second nature. My experience suggests something more extreme than you'd use in a boat: 1/4-slide/ 1/2-slide/ 1/2-slide/ 1/2-slide/ 3/4-slide/ full or some such. But exactly how that works is likely to depend on your limb length, the DF you're using in your trialling, your upper-body strength vis-a-vis your legs, and your ability to get back up the slide quickly on the recoveries. If you're reading this, Leo, what did you use?

Leo Young wrote:
I think I probably did my 500 meter start with something like: 3/4, 1/4, 1/2, 3/4, full stroke, but I had to be careful not to go below 1:07 on the model B erg, which I hit on the 3rd or 4th stroke, before slowing settling back to sitting on 1:08 to 1:09 for the rest of the rest of the effort, with the odd 1:10 stroke.

The model B didn't have the ability to give you a drag factor readout. I did my 500 on the highest gearing (small cog / vent open), which I believe supposedly produces a drag factor at least as high or perhaps a little higher than what can currently be achieved on the model C, D or E, so 200++. But I did a lot of my training on the lowest possible drag (including almost fully covering the cage), in order to improve speed and technique efficiency.

The optimal setting is specific to the user though, being influenced amongst other factors, by bodyweight (positive correlation, due to higher potential power), limb length (inverse correlation, as longer limbs increase the effective gearing, whilst shorter limbs lower the effective gearing), muscle fiber twitch profile, technique/catch efficiency (the better your technique and the faster your catch, the lower the drag you can use), rating (inverse correlation), stroke length (inverse correlation) strength (positive correlation), speed capacity (inverse correlation) and of course gearing familiarisation. That all being said, you should use the lowest drag factor you can develop sufficient power with and you certainly should include plenty of training at very low drag factors, in order to refine your technique efficiency and the speed of you catch.
Lindsay
66yo 91kg
Sydney Australia
Forum Flyer
PBs 1 min 362m ('15), 500m 1:25.4 ('14), 2k 6:46.1 ('15), 5km 18:07.9 ('16) HM @1:59.2 ('16)
lindsayh
10k Poster
 
Posts: 1614
Joined: June 23rd, 2013, 3:32 am
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Sprints and Stuff- training/questions 1k and below

Postby Balkan boy » February 22nd, 2016, 5:37 am

Shawn Baker wrote:Studies on Beta Alanine I've seen suggest its utility lies in short interval repeats


I would agree with this based on my N=1 research.
About three months ago I've been doing the Wolverine Plan with about 80-90km per week. I've been supplementing a balanced diet with Whey, Creatine and BCAA. I've noticed absolutely no improvement from the supplements in the recovery, power or increased muscle mass. I was pissing away expensive sugared water.
Six months before that I did the same bout of supplements, but I was doing a lot more strength exercises and a shorter and more intense rowing. During that period I had modest improvements that could be attributed to supplements.

My facetious take on Power vs. Endurance is that it takes a lot more energy (i.e. food=money) to sustain a large, powerful body. You can do a lot on a hermit's diet and resources if you're willing to sacrifice muscle mass.
Balkan boy
1k Poster
 
Posts: 184
Joined: April 20th, 2015, 3:14 pm

Re: Sprints and Stuff- training/questions 1k and below

Postby lindsayh » February 22nd, 2016, 5:44 am

This is another thread on this topic - not sure where it came from so can't acknowledge it so just someone's ideas.

How do you get yourself into the "die" zone without "racing your training"?

First, keep in mind that you can do 500m training only for about five weeks; after that there will be miniscule gains, if any.
During that time, squeeze the target from above and below with just two speed workouts per week.
For example, suppose your target is 1:20, then on Speed Day #1 do 300|250|200 @1:20 with as much rest as you want without getting cold.
On Speed Day #2, do 600|550|500 @ target+10 (in this case, 1:30), but with only 2:30 rest (i.e., go again when the flywheel stops).
Speed Day #3 = 325|275|225 @1:20.
Speed Day #4 = 600|550|500 @1:29
Each week add 25m to the @1:20 workout and subtract 1s/500m from the other.
If you can't complete the third rep on pace, drop back to two for the rest of the 5 weeks, i.e., don't risk over-training.
Concentrate on steady pacing, blank your mind and row through the tape every interval.
Also, breathe twice each stroke from the start; the 500m is too short for your heart rate to reach and sustain maximum for any appreciable time, so you need a head start on oxygenation.
Other tips: start with a drag factor of 160-170 to begin; adjust to fit. Shorten the stroke to just beyond 3/4. Try different starting stroke lengths to find the sequence that gets you the highest watts on the sixth stroke (not the fifth, not the seventh).
Lindsay
66yo 91kg
Sydney Australia
Forum Flyer
PBs 1 min 362m ('15), 500m 1:25.4 ('14), 2k 6:46.1 ('15), 5km 18:07.9 ('16) HM @1:59.2 ('16)
lindsayh
10k Poster
 
Posts: 1614
Joined: June 23rd, 2013, 3:32 am
Location: Sydney, Australia

Next

Return to Training

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: JerekKruger and 20 guests