Performance Diet Types and Terminology

General discussions about getting and staying fit that don't relate directly to your indoor rower

Performance Diet Types and Terminology

Postby left coaster » May 28th, 2016, 7:39 pm

There are many references on the board to different types of diets with a fair bit of chat recently about LCHF versions. The diet terminology has me confused and I don't want to hijack any other threads so thought I'd start a new one. I'm interested in learning some specifics of diet plans as well as more about timing of eating what when (there was a clinical nutritionist who made some interesting comments on another thread).

I'll start out with the concept of a low carbohydrate, high fat, diet as this one has me the most confused. In particular, how carbohydrates are measured has me curious. As I understand nutrition (which is limited, I have no training) fruits and vegetables are good for me. However, when I look up nutritional content of many vegetables and most fruits I see that most of their calorie content comes from carbohydrates. With this in mind, does a LCHF diet involve restricting consumption of fruits and vegetables, perhaps focusing on leafy greens and a few low carb veggies? Or, am overthinking this and does the LCHF diet primarily eliminate grains and processed carbohydrates (something I think is a great idea, give the little bit I know).
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Re: Performance Diet Types and Terminology

Postby skiffrace » May 29th, 2016, 11:39 am

I'll start out with the concept of a low carbohydrate, high fat, diet as this one has me the most confused. In particular, how carbohydrates are measured has me curious. As I understand nutrition (which is limited, I have no training) fruits and vegetables are good for me.

Fruits and vegetables should not be lumped in the same category. Fruits are mostly fructose sugar, with limited amounts of some vitamins and fiber thrown in - in other words, no more than dessert. Eat them in moderation.
Vegetables, OTOH, are among the most valuable types of food out there. They are not only good for you, they are critical for health and longevity - eat a large variety of them as much as you can.
With this in mind, does a LCHF diet involve restricting consumption of fruits and vegetables, perhaps focusing on leafy greens and a few low carb veggies?

According to Atkins, you are allowed to eat vegetables, because they are naturally low in calories/carbohydrate, and high in vitamins/minerals/phytochemicals/antioxidants etc.
You are not allowed to eat much fruit, because again, they are mostly sugar.
This is where the beneficial part of Atkins-like diet ends.
As far as the high-fat/high protein part, well, if you don't mind heart disease and/or cancer coming your way sooner rather than later, then enjoy that greasy steak washed down with casein-based "energy drink"....
The enjoyment of barbecued pork chops is well worth having your body split open and mangled by the surgeons while you lie hooked up to the heart-lung machine, and then hanging-on to (miserable) life while trying to "recover".
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Re: Performance Diet Types and Terminology

Postby hjs » May 29th, 2016, 1:12 pm

skiffrace wrote:According to Atkins, you are allowed to eat vegetables, because they are naturally low in calories/carbohydrate, and high in vitamins/minerals/phytochemicals/antioxidants etc.
You are not allowed to eat much fruit, because again, they are mostly sugar.
This is where the beneficial part of Atkins-like diet ends.
As far as the high-fat/high protein part, well, if you don't mind heart disease and/or cancer coming your way sooner rather than later, then enjoy that greasy steak washed down with casein-based "energy drink"....
The enjoyment of barbecued pork chops is well worth having your body split open and mangled by the surgeons while you lie hooked up to the heart-lung machine, and then hanging-on to (miserable) life while trying to "recover".


Bizar statement, can you point to one, and only one rechearch where subject ate high fat, low carb, with high fat not being omega6 rich fats? I won,t hold my breath.....

Heart disease comes from a high carb diet preferably combinined with cheap vegetable oils, which is very easy to come by. To top it off smoke and drink a good amount of alcohol.

Fruit, depending on the kind is often around 5% sugars, so you need a full kg to get 50 gram carbs in. So fruit on the side is seldom a problem. For enough energy (fat) and building blocks (protein) they are not usefull.
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Re: Performance Diet Types and Terminology

Postby left coaster » May 29th, 2016, 2:05 pm

So from the 2 replies it would seem that a LCHF diet may simply be a low grain/processed carb (sugar) diet. Perhaps simplistic, but would others agree that this is the primary focus?

I had initially thought it would also include avoiding things like banana's, beets, beans, (57 grams of carbs per cup), corn, peas, squash etc etc. Eliminating potato's and yams seems obvious, but there are lots and lots of high carb fruits and veggies out there. A single banana has 25 grams of carbs, an apple has about the same. A cup of cherries or orange, again, 25 grams of carbs.

The other side is that all of the foods I listed above I've been told over and over again are good for me. Recent headlines read that fruit intake reduces cancer risk etc etc. It seems that a low carb diet would eliminate many sources of important nutrients, in essence "stealing form Peter to pay Paul" from a dietary and health perspective.
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Re: Performance Diet Types and Terminology

Postby skiffrace » May 29th, 2016, 2:22 pm

Bizar statement, can you point to one, and only one rechearch where subject ate high fat, low carb, with high fat not being omega6 rich fats? I won,t hold my breath.....

Good, because you'd passed out by now..
http://nutritionstudies.org/masai-and-i ... oser-look/

Heart disease comes from a high carb diet

Really...
The abstract;
http://www.nytimes.com/1990/05/08/scien ... %22&st=cse
and full research:
http://www.amazon.com/The-China-Study-C ... 1932100385

The other side is that all of the foods I listed above I've been told over and over again are good for me. Recent headlines read that fruit intake reduces cancer risk etc etc. It seems that a low carb diet would eliminate many sources of important nutrients, in essence "stealing form Peter to pay Paul" from a dietary and health perspective.

Not a bad perspective. Get rid of fruit, but keep the vegetables. Best yet, if you insist on LCHF diet, stick as much as possible to unprocessed foods, primarily of plant origin. This means lots of nuts and seeds - high fat, high protein ,nutritional powerhouses. If you insist on animal fat and protein, favor fish - they contain super important omega 3 fatty acids.
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Re: Performance Diet Types and Terminology

Postby hjs » May 29th, 2016, 2:40 pm

skiffrace wrote:

The other side is that all of the foods I listed above I've been told over and over again are good for me. Recent headlines read that fruit intake reduces cancer risk etc etc. It seems that a low carb diet would eliminate many sources of important nutrients, in essence "stealing form Peter to pay Paul" from a dietary and health perspective.

Not a bad perspective. Get rid of fruit, but keep the vegetables. Best yet, if you insist on LCHF diet, stick as much as possible to unprocessed foods, primarily of plant origin. This means lots of nuts and seeds - both nutritional powerhouse. If you insist on animal fat and protein, favor fish - they contain super important omega 3 fatty acids.


Fish and vegetables are fine.

Re the massai, they drink a lot of milk and blood, so a poor example of low carb, milk is pretty rich on carbs...

For the rest, ofcourse processed food are crap, full of omega6 and sugar/carbs. High fat low carb is per difinition unprocessed. The problem with vegetables is lack of energy. To get enough energy in we would need to eat kg per day. Our stomach can,t process that, we are not gorillas.

Fish in itself is fine, fat fish, the trouble her is we are fishing the oceans empty.

In the bigger picture I follow the idea that nature took care of itself. Food and lifeforms are in coexistance for a long time and thus adapted to eachother. We only very recently started to concentrate and process food in large % es. This disturbs the natural way things work.

I don,t see why humans who are omnivores should not eat meat and such. The problem here could be the food the animals get. If thats unnatural, we get it in also indirectly.
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Re: Performance Diet Types and Terminology

Postby skiffrace » May 29th, 2016, 3:08 pm

In the bigger picture I follow the idea that nature took care of itself.

Well, yes and no. Let's take mammals (and many other species). If you allow them unlimited amount of any food they want, they will overwhelmingly feed on high-fat, high protein (because it tastes good).
High-fat, high protein diet promotes rapid growth and sexual maturity. A specimen fed that way will grow up and breed fast. This is the "success" part, from the biological perspective.
What comes next is less enticing. Such a specimen is more likely to develop heart disease or cancer, and die as a result. So he/she "did a good job" for their species, not so much for themselves. From the evolutionary perspective, it worked though.


Food and lifeforms are in coexistance for a long time and thus adapted to eachother. We only very recently started to concentrate and process food in large % es. This disturbs the natural way things work.
I don,t see why humans who are omnivores should not eat meat and such.

I can reluctantly go along with this. Home sapiens in their 10 million years (and our ape ancestors before) did indeed ate all kinds of food.
Massai and Inuits aside, during the hunter-gatherer part of hominid history (again, 10 million years), typically men hunted and women gathered. It appears though, that in most places the foods women gathered (typically plants) was the main staple, and the outcome of men's hunt (meat) was the occasional feast. In todays "developed" societies, those proportions are reversed.
And then again, don't forget that if our ancestors lived long enough to breed (say, 25 to 30 years), that was good enough for them and our specie. Today we'd prefer to stick around for a little longer.

And BTW, I fully agree with your opinion on over-fishing. We should eat only sustainably cough fish, preferably coming from the farm.
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Re: Performance Diet Types and Terminology

Postby jackarabit » May 29th, 2016, 3:15 pm

Food and lifeforms? I guess you can lick some necessary minerals off a rock and ingest and pass parafine, clay and some veggie-based packing materials without harm but lifeforms without exception are food, including us. I hope we aren't making the bacteria ill.
There are two types of people in this world: Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data

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Re: Performance Diet Types and Terminology

Postby jackarabit » May 29th, 2016, 3:18 pm

Gorge for three moons fast for nine,
See if you live to 29.
--paleo poem
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Re: Performance Diet Types and Terminology

Postby hjs » May 29th, 2016, 3:20 pm

jackarabit wrote:Food and lifeforms? I guess you can lick some necessary minerals off a rock and ingest and pass parafine, clay and some veggie-based packing materials without harm but lifeforms without exception are food, including us. I hope we aren't making the bacteria ill.


You are a lifeform Jack. You could try that form of eating, I know I won,t.... :wink: and no man ever did.
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Re: Performance Diet Types and Terminology

Postby jackarabit » May 29th, 2016, 3:54 pm

Carbon-based lifeforms and carbon-based food are synonymous, Henry. All samesame, buddy, we are food for worms. You proberly skipped over the prince of Denmark in your study of dietetics. :wink:
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Re: Performance Diet Types and Terminology

Postby left coaster » May 29th, 2016, 4:18 pm

Re: eating nuts.

Dr. Google tells me that nuts are about 20% carbohydrate i.e. 100g of nuts = 20 grams of carbs.

Unless a person is living off of meat and oil, most other foods contain carbs. Not eating any vegetables, nuts, beans etc in an effort to restrict carbs seems ludicrous...

I remain completely confused about what folks are referring to with a LCHF diet. Dr. Google tells me that spinach is 3.6% carbs i.e. 100g spinach = 3.6 grams of carbs. However, 100g spinach only contains about 23 calories. A day's worth of calories from spinach would require 100g x 100 = 10kg...
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Re: Performance Diet Types and Terminology

Postby hjs » May 29th, 2016, 5:02 pm

jackarabit wrote:Carbon-based lifeforms and carbon-based food are synonymous, Henry. All samesame, buddy, we are food for worms. You proberly skipped over the prince of Denmark in your study of dietetics. :wink:


Jack you are not really contributing in the discussion in this form, the quots you post are just spam.

I have internet trouble, so hardly can,t watch links, from memory, the prince of Denmark ate a high protein, low fat, low carb diet. So far from a low carb, high fat diet. Was it not the rabbits diet? Rabits are very lean, no fat.
A high fat dieet needs, fatty meat, eggs, fat fish, butter, cheese. A good bit of leafy vegatables go with that. Low carb is not non carb. If a person needs 3k of energy and gets 10/20% in carb form, that would be 300/600 cal. That would be 60/120 gram of carbs. With 3% content in carbs, that would be lots of greens. In practice its impossible to overeat carbs in vegetable form.
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Re: Performance Diet Types and Terminology

Postby skiffrace » May 29th, 2016, 5:41 pm

Unless a person is living off of meat and oil, most other foods contain carbs. Not eating any vegetables, nuts, beans etc in an effort to restrict carbs seems ludicrous...

Right. Based on this and similar observations, doesn't the common sense revolt against the notion of LCHF diet invented by guy with ongoing cardiovascular disease https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Atkins_%28nutritionist%29#Death ?
Wouldn't a whole, unprocessed foods diet make a lot more sense?
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Re: Performance Diet Types and Terminology

Postby bisqeet » May 30th, 2016, 2:33 am

just observing as i recently switched to paleo:
-health related nothing to do with targets, but a lot of the theory makes sense and a great deal of hashimoto affected (autoimmune disease of the thyroid) have had some positive results changing to this, compared to other diets / vegan, vegetarian.

i think a lot of the processed food available in the superhyper markets are low cost produced, hence use of cheap ingredients; oils, manipulated grains etc.
I guess its our own fault - consumers arent willing to pay good money for food, so its produced cheap - they have to cut corners somewhere.
i guess im kinda agreeing with henry here, if you read through between henry's unique writing style the comments make sense, even if they feel as though they are feel like you are licking dogpee of a nettle :)

and jacks comments make me laugh and realise that a laugh is to be enjoyed always. not getting out of this world alive - might as well have some fun on the way :)
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