Performance Diet Types and Terminology

General discussions about getting and staying fit that don't relate directly to your indoor rower

Re: Performance Diet Types and Terminology

Postby Shawn Baker » June 16th, 2016, 1:00 pm

Mark, to clarify my thoughts- I don't think there is a fuel partitioning advantage for the anaerobic work I tend to do as there is among ultra endurance athletes. Where I do feel that the performance advantage of LCHF diet coupled with other stuff lies in the reduction in inflammation and thus my ability to be better recovered and thus train with intensity more frequently.
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Re: Performance Diet Types and Terminology

Postby Tim K. » June 16th, 2016, 1:55 pm

MIke, getting into ketosis is miserable for me. I have food on my mind all day, I open and close cupboards looking for something to eat all day. I dont feel hungry, I just want to eat. I have really never noticed the physical side effects a lot of others report. It would make life a lot easier if the rest of the family was into it but that isnt going to happen. If you clear the house of temptation it makes it much easier.

Another good source of information and support will be this book: https://www.amazon.ca/Art-Science-Low-C ... 0983490708

I agree completely with what you said about the 'Paleo" movement. I do not believe what I strive for is a "natural" diet. I believe it is a diet developed through study of humans and that for the most part is "evidence based".
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Re: Performance Diet Types and Terminology

Postby markinnb » June 16th, 2016, 7:53 pm

mdpfirrman wrote:I personally have great respect for people that are disciplined with their diets. I'm more disciplined than 99% of the population with mine but still have moments where I eat more carbs.

Of course this may happen , for some people more than others. it must be seen for what it is, a momentary non permanent incident and not let these things became a fixture in your mind. It's a slight bump.
What turned me off of the paleo movement wasn't that I thought they were wrong, it was the amount of hypocrites (and I'm not talking those on here - I think Tim and Shawn seem pretty loyal too it and actually practice it). But you go on a lot of "paleo" sites and see ridiculous recipes with honey or molasses and it's usually those that are using paleo as a weight loss tool (or cheating with tons of cheese). When you point these inconsistencies out, they typically respond with "well, I'm not 100% strict" but they don't eat quinoa why?? It's absurd when you think of it.

Its just a name. paleo is just a name. what these people are doing is something that is not what others describe it as being. i'm good. Some doctors call it by another name . Some people say that paleo is anything that came out of the ground or could be caught. ( so veges were allowed as were all the fats and proteins ). As soon as people read that, someone will start fighting that then it's not paleo. perhaps not paleo as someone has defined it. I find these arguments about the name of a diet rather bizarre. it doesn't affect me that someone else , whom I don't know and never will care about, are delusional about their dieting practice. I've listened to this sort of thing for 37 years so I can of consider it water off a duck's back.

As for ultra low carb, I'm not a performance athlete so I can't say what works best but I appreciate the information. If I had the ability to watch my carbs as religiously as some I might try this lifestyle. I think it would help my wife's inflammation. We've cut a LOT of sugar, but are not as strict as we could be. Learning more and more every day about LCHF. For me, I think it will be more incremental. Knowing that MCT Oils help keep you burning fat while allowing more carbs (without moving out of ketosis) might help me if I really ever want to stay ultra low carb for an extended period of time. At least that's my understanding of why to add more MCT oils to a low carb diet.

Right now, I'm still a bit skeptical about my ability to perform. I'll look at the information Shawn provided a few more times. Maybe I didn't give it long enough because of how miserable I felt.

This would apply to performance athletes , having short term or long term goals/targets,
you have to not want the foods that you don't eat. if you want to stick with any food program. to gain or lose weight or to drop fat from your physique. The feeling of satisfaction of seeing your physique change to something close to a peak condition or to hit that number is far more rewarding than any piece of cheesecake could ever be.

you know, once you get to that point, you may not even want that food item. But once there, your mind has changed. I see it a a real change- whatever influence was there previously, acting on your mind , no longer is acting to confound your goals. leptin ghrelin, igf and all the rest. found and as yet undiscovered.

not everyone is concerned about this. you want to do it for health. So being lean or peak physique may not be important.
Last edited by markinnb on June 16th, 2016, 7:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Performance Diet Types and Terminology

Postby markinnb » June 16th, 2016, 7:56 pm

I am interested in hearing about the diet habits of guys like Armando, Greg, Steve, Edward, Jack , Bob , James ( already noted cheese bowls etc.. good stuff ), Glen Remi and others
These guys put in some serious distance. I expect it to be a more moderate carb approach. Lots of spinach and other veges. unprocessed foods, refined sugars are out. Maybe low-moderate glycemic load choices. ?
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Re: Performance Diet Types and Terminology

Postby mdpfirrman » June 17th, 2016, 11:32 am

markinnb wrote:I am interested in hearing about the diet habits of guys like Armando, Greg, Steve, Edward, Jack , Bob , James ( already noted cheese bowls etc.. good stuff ), Glen Remi and others
These guys put in some serious distance. I expect it to be a more moderate carb approach. Lots of spinach and other veges. unprocessed foods, refined sugars are out. Maybe low-moderate glycemic load choices. ?


I can tell you that a guy that I mentioned in the thread earlier who is one of the world's top ultra marathoner (Harvey Lewis - the guy who won Badwater two years ago) - I found information on this diet - lot's of Coca Cola! Obviously, he's not afraid of sugar. I'm sure he's a rare exception though.

Here's an interesting article too on the Lakers how they all went lower carb (not that it helped them much - they were horrible that season but all said they felt much better).

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/nutri ... ds-career/
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Re: Performance Diet Types and Terminology

Postby G-dub » June 17th, 2016, 3:09 pm

markinnb wrote:I am interested in hearing about the diet habits of guys like Armando, Greg, Steve, Edward, Jack , Bob , James ( already noted cheese bowls etc.. good stuff ), Glen Remi and others
These guys put in some serious distance. I expect it to be a more moderate carb approach. Lots of spinach and other veges. unprocessed foods, refined sugars are out. Maybe low-moderate glycemic load choices. ?


I'm not in the same league as others mentioned above, but I try to limit starchy carbs. My wife loves them, however, so they're is usually a small bit on the plate. Try to eat lots of dark leafy vegetables. Eat pretty clean proteins - mostly chicken and turkey and fish. Eat good fats. My weakness is beer. I would seriously consider, after meeting near term 2K goal, of trying low carb if not for the fact that I will never stop drinking craft beer.
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Re: Performance Diet Types and Terminology

Postby markinnb » June 18th, 2016, 2:42 am

mdpfirrman wrote:I can tell you that a guy that I mentioned in the thread earlier who is one of the world's top ultra marathoner (Harvey Lewis - the guy who won Badwater two years ago) - I found information on this diet - lot's of Coca Cola! Obviously, he's not afraid of sugar. I'm sure he's a rare exception though.


There are several UMR who eat vegan or at least quasi-vegetarian-ish- plant based food sources. mostly CArbs. lacto-ovo sortof thing.
These ppl may be real efficient carb burners.
I dont know of many athletes who purposefully use coke as a pe. he calls it rocket fuel.

I am guessing that the macro kcal % pfc-f would be 20-10-70 o 10-10-80. with fibre above 30. depending on nut intake/avocado/olive and/or coconut oi. maybe they find a good source of omega 3. and ignore the source
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Re: Performance Diet Types and Terminology

Postby markinnb » June 19th, 2016, 7:45 am

G-dub wrote:
markinnb wrote:I am interested in hearing about the diet habits of guys like Armando, Greg, Steve, Edward, Jack , Bob , James ( already noted cheese bowls etc.. good stuff ), Glen Remi and others
These guys put in some serious distance. I expect it to be a more moderate carb approach. Lots of spinach and other veges. unprocessed foods, refined sugars are out. Maybe low-moderate glycemic load choices. ?


I'm not in the same league as others mentioned above, but I try to limit starchy carbs. My wife loves them, however, so they're is usually a small bit on the plate. Try to eat lots of dark leafy vegetables. Eat pretty clean proteins - mostly chicken and turkey and fish. Eat good fats. My weakness is beer. I would seriously consider, after meeting near term 2K goal, of trying low carb if not for the fact that I will never stop drinking craft beer.


I hear you on the beer front. The stuff is delicious . a Belgian buddy of mine makes a delicious hoppy beer , using a different strain of yeast that what is normally used in NA.

The issue about modifying a person's diet, for health or performance reasons- is whether the effect is large enough to offset/ compensate for the effort.
small effort large reward= pretty good investment. especially if seen in a short period of time
small effort- small reward--- less so.--- especially if the positive effect is seen only after a lengthy period of time.
big effort- big reward- ... depends on how it' framed....time
big effort - small reward---depends on how it's framed.. and then there is the time involved.
and any combination of those things.

you do a lot of mountain biking and other things.. so you are actually indeed in the same category as the others- you're all different in some spectacular ways but much the same in the way of what you want from erging.
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Re: Performance Diet Types and Terminology

Postby hjs » June 20th, 2016, 10:37 am

http://live.smashthefat.com/why-i-didnt-get-fat/

Overeating on fat or on carbs. Same cal... But big difference in outcome.
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Re: Performance Diet Types and Terminology

Postby markinnb » June 21st, 2016, 6:26 am

hjs wrote:http://live.smashthefat.com/why-i-didnt-get-fat/

Overeating on fat or on carbs. Same cal... But big difference in outcome.


Apart from the overeating thing, I thought it was going to be similar to this experiment.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2546975/One-twin-gave-sugar-gave-fat-Their-experiment-change-YOUR-life.html
over the years, i've seen many iterations ( many sets of many reps !) of these things. one issue is, as suggested by Mike, that the length of time needed to get psychologically adapted as well as generally used to the new diet, is longer than the 4-8 week period of the study. On an abrupt change of substrate %, a person may not perform as well as they had previously.
There may be a small decrease in performance in the early weeks of the program. And the definition of " early weeks " is not the same for every person involved.
For some reason, 8 weeks is needed for one person while for another, they were ready in 1.
humans' relationship with food is a complex issue.

It could be that the health benefits appear much sooner than the positive performance effects, if there are any for that specific individual.
A person may not notice the subtle health benefits sooner ( changes in blood profile to reflect the assumed positive health effect ) than they are able to notice any changes in performance.
iow, the imperceptible positive ( if true ) change in health parameters is dismissed due to the perceptible if not wildly obvious deterioration is performance ( if it happens)


Bonking is an issue . Although that is for another time. Most of our efforts on the erg is with the 2k or shortish term events.

Thanks for that link Henry.
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Re: Performance Diet Types and Terminology

Postby hjs » June 21st, 2016, 8:22 am

Cheers Mark,

Indeed short tests are not very usefull, longer run is needed.

Other thing, just read Chris Froome s book, the climb. Certainly no low carber, topcyclist never are. But he does not use breakfast for training, he starts training fasted and during the training depending on duration etc he starts eating. Sessions are always long 100k is nothing.
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Re: Performance Diet Types and Terminology

Postby mdpfirrman » June 23rd, 2016, 10:33 am

Really on point Q&A with Joe Friel (famous author about performance over 50) about rowing performance. In particular (don't stop at the end of the article - READ the comment below!).

Seems like those of you that are doing very LCHF diets and changing or "tweaking" them during your race season to load in a bit more complex carbs are on to something. That @pjsweeney twitter account might be interesting to many to read.

http://www.joefrielsblog.com/2015/05/hi ... tions.html
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Re: Performance Diet Types and Terminology

Postby left coaster » June 26th, 2016, 2:37 pm

skiffrace wrote:
then down to Sicily -- I'll be eating some interesting things over the next couple weeks. James, that dinner sounds divine - where do you live?

In Italy yet? Have you noticed how slim, trim, and overall good-looking the Italians are?
Ask them about the details of the low-carb diet they are following.


I remembered this post as I was cruising through Sicily, it made me chuckle quite a few times -- especially when in the country side surrounded by lots of really chubby women and middle aged men with big bellies. The population isn't "walmart fat" but in Sicily they don't jump out as healthy or fit in any way. Those who aren't fat tend to be 'skinny fat' i.e. thin but still with lots of body fat.

It was a fantastic trip though and I found the Sicilian people to be as fun and inviting as they were diverse. Palermo in particular is a crazy, mashed up intensely multi-cultural place. After getting over how narrow the streets were in old-town where we stayed (at first everything seemed like a dirty back alley), the scale of things started to make sense and I came to understand the divisions of neighborhoods and cultures. Never felt threatened once, although the peeps in our little part of the city definitely knew exactly who were were and when we came and went. Towards the end it was obvious that they had accepted our presence and on a couple occasions it was clear that they were looking out for us i.e. kept a parking spot open (which is a really big deal as parking is impossible), would give a wink and nod when we went by etc. Driving was a bunch of fun as well -- they drive like I want to drive when at home, and just do it all the time. Works for me :)
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Re: Performance Diet Types and Terminology

Postby left coaster » October 13th, 2016, 6:45 pm

Bump on an old thread

Wondering if anyone has an opinion on proposed 'apoe diet and exercise plans' like the one found here? Interestingly, as an APOE2/2 it indicates I should be following Shawn's lead and leaning towards a low carb diet. It also indicates that the majority of my exercise should be anaerobic, which I find interesting as well.

http://vitalvictoria.ca/wp-content/uplo ... TATION.pdf

Here's another example, more detailed and online as a patent

https://www.google.com/patents/EP2038866A2?cl=en
100m: 15.5, 1Min: 353, 500m: 1:29, 5K: 19:41.2, 10K: 40:46

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Re: Performance Diet Types and Terminology

Postby mdpfirrman » October 17th, 2016, 5:03 pm

Interesting Lefty. How do you figure out what you are with a standard DNA test?
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