Calorie Burn without heart rate increase?

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Calorie Burn without heart rate increase?

Postby QofN » March 8th, 2018, 9:47 pm

I've become addicted to the C2 rower at my gym just in the past few months. Several weeks in, I noticed that my heart rate doesn't rise much past 95 since I'm on a beta blocker medicine for a heart arrhythmia. I've lost a few pounds, but wonder if I can truly loose weight without increasing my heart rate.

I'm now up to rowing about 4 to 5 times a week an hour every time or about 8000 meters at an 8 to a 10 resistance. My average stroke per meter is between 28 and 30. I do break a sweat, but I'm never out of breath nor is my heart beat up above 100.

Do you think I should just go for a longer time and is it really burning calories or just sugar in the muscles? I just wondered if anyone had any experience with something similar and what their outcome was?
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Re: Calorie Burn without heart rate increase?

Postby hjs » March 9th, 2018, 4:15 am

QofN wrote:I've become addicted to the C2 rower at my gym just in the past few months. Several weeks in, I noticed that my heart rate doesn't rise much past 95 since I'm on a beta blocker medicine for a heart arrhythmia. I've lost a few pounds, but wonder if I can truly loose weight without increasing my heart rate.

I'm now up to rowing about 4 to 5 times a week an hour every time or about 8000 meters at an 8 to a 10 resistance. My average stroke per meter is between 28 and 30. I do break a sweat, but I'm never out of breath nor is my heart beat up above 100.

Do you think I should just go for a longer time and is it really burning calories or just sugar in the muscles? I just wondered if anyone had any experience with something similar and what their outcome was?


In general the more you do, the more energy you use, So it will help.
Read about drag setting 8/10 is wrong, makes the strokes way to slow, rating 28/30 is also wrong, you don,t take full strokes, but very short sloppy ones.
Set the drag lower think 110/120, find the setting to see that. And start making full strokes. Even with the b blockers you should get above 8000 meters in a hours. That really is a very very easy pace. Which is not helping.

Bit more info like age height, mv etc could help.

And ofcourse food..... Stays number one, low carb is the most easy way to burn away extra weight.
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Re: Calorie Burn without heart rate increase?

Postby jamesg » March 10th, 2018, 6:23 am

I've lost a few pounds, but wonder if I can truly lose weight without increasing my heart rate.


You're not working very hard, if your HR stays under 100, but enough to affect fitness. As this and your technique improve, increasing power output, your steady state HR during exercise will go up.

Weight control also needs an eye on the quantitative aspects of diet, not just exercise.

As an exercise target, try 1 Watt/kg body mass, using a lowish BMI, say 23. The erg can show you your output power in Watts; you may need to alter drastically your style of rowing, to reach a target between 60 and 80W. Most work can be done if we use a rowing style that fully engages the legs; in any case it won't be as hard as climbing stairs.

I've been using a mix (now called Bivis) for about 15 years, with two BP control mechanisms. It has no effect on heart rate that I can see.
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Re: Calorie Burn without heart rate increase?

Postby QofN » March 10th, 2018, 10:42 pm

Correction 28/30 strokes per minute not meter.
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Re: Calorie Burn without heart rate increase?

Postby lindsayh » March 11th, 2018, 3:06 am

QofN wrote:Correction 28/30 strokes per minute not meter.


Yes that was understood I think - the aim should be to row at 20-24 SR (per minute) (James has accidently put bmi)
You should seek out information on Drag Factor rather than rely on damper setting and as henry says look for a DF of 120 ish. There are heaps of links on these threads especially the training one. Setting to watts will help look at power per stroke and a goal of 1W/kg is a good first goal.
Technique is a must - look for the links to videos from C2 and dark horse rowing amongst others. It is all about the efficient harnessing of leg power in the end.

You probably don't need to go longer but over time you should be able to go further in an hour as you improve power and raise HR further towards 70/80% of max and thus burn fat.

This thread above offers some good insights from a beginner:
http://www.c2forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=170912
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Re: Calorie Burn without heart rate increase?

Postby e-Clair » March 12th, 2018, 3:56 pm

lindsayh wrote:Yes that was understood I think - the aim should be to row at 20-24 SR (per minute) (James has accidently put bmi)

I think James meant BMI. When calculating target Wattage, don't use your actual weight if you're noticeably overweight; use a healthy weight. If you're underweight, I suppose use your actual weight.
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Re: Calorie Burn without heart rate increase?

Postby QofN » March 12th, 2018, 9:15 pm

I will definitely look into the DF. I appreciate all of the input. I am overweight and working diligently on food changes over the past year. Overall I'm down 12 pounds, which is primarily from dietary changes and certainly can be better. There's always room for improvement there for sure. I am a female, 52, 5' 9" and last weigh in was 267.

It takes a lot to put that out there in writing, but must face it and move forward. I play competitive volleyball twice a week and truly have discovered rowing and find it very enjoyable. I want to get outside one day when the weather permits, but for now indoor is awesome. And, for the first time, I actually look forward to going to the gym 4 to 5 times a week. My goal is to get to the rower at least 15 to 20 times a month for the rest of the year and re-evaluate. I'm not giving up, but was looking for feedback on what others have come across. I do break a good sweat and feel quite a bit of after burn an hour later, but the resting heart rate is about 62 and when on the rower at the peak about 95 at best so far. When playing vball it's gets closer to 120, but the rapid heart beats were becoming too frequent and hence the need for the beta blocker. Thanks to all who responded.
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Re: Calorie Burn without heart rate increase?

Postby Ombrax » March 13th, 2018, 12:20 am

QofN wrote:Overall I'm down 12 pounds, which is primarily from dietary changes and certainly can be better. There's always room for improvement there for sure.


Congratulations, and keep at it :)

1) Make sure you are using the correct rowing technique. The C2 web site has lots of good info and videos on this.

2) I would obviously defer to your doctor on this, and be sure to check with him/her that what you're doing is safe and OK, but if you're not out of breath and your HR isn't going past 100 bpm, then perhaps you aren't pushing yourself hard enough and going harder might be better. I can guarantee you with 1000% certainly that the erg can work you as hard as you're willing or capable of pushing it, and it can work you to exhaustion if you choose to try to do that. Don't do anything risky, but if your doctor says it's OK, do push yourself harder - you'll see your pace (time / 500m) improve (ie less min:secs / 500m as you go faster - that's the standard measure of how fast and hard you're working, so lower is better). Depending on where you are now (2:30 pace, or 3:00, or 3:15, or whatever, you can do now) choose a goal that's a bit faster and keep pushing yourself - you will see improvements.

3) The harder you work (again safely) the more you'll improve.

4) Regard drag factor - in the menus you can get the machine to display what it is while you row. During your warm-up you can check it and see what it is. Somewhere around 100-120 is probably about right for you. On the Model E I use in my gym a lever position of 5.5 gives me a DF of about 120. If you don't want to mess with displaying the DF, you could row about 100m with the lever around 8-10, then put the lever at 5 and compare how things feel. I bet you'll find that you'll have a faster pace yet feel better with it around 5 compared to 8-10. But, after trying the lower lever position and lower DF you conclude that you really prefer the higher DF, then go ahead and use that. It is somewhat a matter of personal preference, but for the vast majority of folks who use the erg properly a lower DF is better. YMMV

Good Luck
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Re: Calorie Burn without heart rate increase?

Postby hjs » March 13th, 2018, 4:49 am

QofN wrote:I will definitely look into the DF. I appreciate all of the input. I am overweight and working diligently on food changes over the past year. Overall I'm down 12 pounds, which is primarily from dietary changes and certainly can be better. There's always room for improvement there for sure. I am a female, 52, 5' 9" and last weigh in was 267.

It takes a lot to put that out there in writing, but must face it and move forward. I play competitive volleyball twice a week and truly have discovered rowing and find it very enjoyable. I want to get outside one day when the weather permits, but for now indoor is awesome. And, for the first time, I actually look forward to going to the gym 4 to 5 times a week. My goal is to get to the rower at least 15 to 20 times a month for the rest of the year and re-evaluate. I'm not giving up, but was looking for feedback on what others have come across. I do break a good sweat and feel quite a bit of after burn an hour later, but the resting heart rate is about 62 and when on the rower at the peak about 95 at best so far. When playing vball it's gets closer to 120, but the rapid heart beats were becoming too frequent and hence the need for the beta blocker. Thanks to all who responded.


Good work.

Re weight/technique. Being on the heavy side is difficult, it limits the range of motion and often does shorten the stroke. Lowering the feet can help a bit, make sure you do try to move you upperbody forward and back during the stroke. Won,t be easy but will help you.
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Re: Calorie Burn without heart rate increase?

Postby edinborogh » May 19th, 2018, 11:13 am

During the year of 2017 i lost 15 Kg ( from 83Kg down to 68Kg and change ) doing mostly steady state at a very low SPM and low enough pace to keep my HR at the "fat burning" zone. when i hit a plato i incorporated some weight work ( bit of squats and such ) but nothing much more then that.
Diet is a key factor but im too lazy and undisciplined to get in to a caloric deficit.
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Re: Calorie Burn without heart rate increase?

Postby jackarabit » May 19th, 2018, 11:15 pm

FWIW, e-clair is correct that James said what he meant and meant what he said about Body Mass Index value 23. 23 or 24 is the usual numerical value signifying high normal weight.
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Re: Calorie Burn without heart rate increase?

Postby Allan Olesen » May 20th, 2018, 2:07 am

jackarabit wrote:FWIW, e-clair is correct that James said what he meant and meant what he said about Body Mass Index value 23.

So in other words, to remove all the BMI confusion from the discussion:
Target power in Watt = 23 * [height in meter] * [height in meter]

In my case, that would be 23*1.835*1.835 = 77 Watt.

By coincidence this is exactly where I started when I began rowing for weight loss and tried to keep my heart rate between 120-130 BPM. Sounds like good advice.

But the target will probably have to be adjusted after a while. After some months, I am now at 120 Watt, still keeping my heart rate between 120-130 BPM.

I am a firm believer of exercising in a low HR range for weight loss. First because you can go on and on for hours and burn a lot of calories. Second because it doesn't make you hungry.
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Re: Calorie Burn without heart rate increase?

Postby Dangerscouse » May 20th, 2018, 8:00 am

Allan Olesen wrote:
I am a firm believer of exercising in a low HR range for weight loss. First because you can go on and on for hours and burn a lot of calories. Second because it doesn't make you hungry.


Agreed, but everything makes me hungry!!
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Re: Calorie Burn without heart rate increase?

Postby rr0ss0rr » May 20th, 2018, 8:37 pm

My "smart" scale says my BMI is ~29, height=1.778 meters and 60 years old so my target should be roughly 92 watts which is a 2:36 500/m pace. When you say you adjust upwards, is that heart rate or the wattage or both? My workouts seemed to have changed when I got the Model E with the PM5. I was rowing on a Model A with no monitor and I would just row for 45-60 minutes. With the Model E, I seem to be pushing myself more, so my workouts run roughly 30 minutes, HR in the low 150's at a 2:24 500/m pace (116 watts). So what would be the recommendation .. slow the pace to maintain the 120-130 HR?

Thanks
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Re: Calorie Burn without heart rate increase?

Postby Allan Olesen » May 21st, 2018, 12:25 am

rr0ss0rr wrote:My "smart" scale says my BMI is ~29, height=1.778 meters and 60 years old so my target should be roughly 92 watts which is a 2:36 500/m pace.

According to the formula from this thread, your target should be 23 * 1.778 * 1.778 = 73 Watt, equal to 2:48 minutes/500m.

rr0ss0rr wrote:When you say you adjust upwards, is that heart rate or the wattage or both?

Adjust wattage upwards to maintain an unchanged heart rate.

The 120-130 is not a general number for all. I have used some pseudo-scientific method developed by a guy named Phil Maffetone. It is intended to be the heart rate range where I train my aerobic fitness optimally. You can find it described in more detail here:
https://philmaffetone.com/180-formula/

The calculation is age based which initially turned me off because I know how unreliable the age based formula for max heart rate is. However, he claims to have a quite large statistical base for his calculation. Anyway, if one doesn't like Maffetone's calculation, there are several other methods for determining the best heart rate for aerobic training. They all end up in roughly the same range for me:
  • Some say that you should stay below 70% of your max. heart rate. In my case that would be 127 BPM.
  • Some say that you should stay below 80% of your lactate threshold. In my case that would be 128 BPM.
  • Some say that you should stay below the heart rate where you can't breathe through your nose anymore. In my case that would be 135 BPM.

So my Maffetone max. of 130 BPM doesn't seem that far off.

In my case it has ended up working very well. The wattage I can output at the same heart rate has improved by 60% over just a few months which I had not thought possible.
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