Distance training to Speed Training

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Re: Distance training to Speed Training

Postby Carl Watts » February 14th, 2018, 5:51 pm

David Pomerantz wrote:Boy, I’m going the opposite direction of this thread. I’m 55 and over last couple of years have gotten to the point where 18spm was standard. I decided to try RowPro, and took on a plan designed for 5K competition. The plan focuses entirely on heart rate and stroke rate. Initially I found keeping my heart rate down within targets impossible as I went up to 23-25spm. Now after some self training I’m able to stay within the HR and SPM targets for the easy rows by pulling easy. I look forward to the slow pressure intervals where I go at 18-20spm. Those are what come naturally to me. Am I making a mistake letting the Row Pro tune me to higher SPM? Perhaps I should focus more on HR and not worry so much about SPM?

Dave


Use rowpro to show you the distance per stroke or DPS, I think V5 even has this on screen live or you can find it in the results. This is far more useful than other stuff.

If your getting 12-13m per stroke at low ratings and still have a decent pace then you should be happy.

Pretty sure the latest version of RowPro has this live on the screen stroke by stroke.

Rating may be an age thing, I just don't do anything faster than 20spm these days.
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Re: Distance training to Speed Training

Postby David Pomerantz » February 14th, 2018, 6:34 pm

Carl,
I was thinking rating was an age thing too. Then as I got more into Row Pro, I started to think that there was perhaps a disconnect between strength and aerobic fitness. When I was younger I was much more cardio and much less strength. I’ve been wondering if my cardio had just declined so much. I’m just about to finish the first half of the 5K plan and actually have been pleased that my HR is staying down when I rate up. I’ve been thinking maybe there was some learning or training effect there. Tomorrow I have my second 6K time trial of the 14 week plan. That may be very informative for me.

Dave
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Re: Distance training to Speed Training

Postby Remo » February 14th, 2018, 8:09 pm

Interesting. Your current workouts are Long Slow Distance aka "LSD" workouts. These are great workouts for basic fitness and they will make you faster. Additionally, this is the base workout for elite rower.

Since you set a goal of 10^6 m between Jan 1 and Mar 31, keep on it. But let me make a few suggestions:

1. Get a Heart Rate Monitor.

2. Add a 5 min. warmup. I like to start with rowing with feet out of the stretchers (which teaches balance and a good finish) and doing the "pick drill" (which teaches a coordinated stroke and a good catch). The pick drill is starting at the finish and (i) take 20 strokes arms only, followed by (ii) 20 strokes arms and body swing, (iii) then 20 strokes arms, body and 1/4 slide (about six inches), (iv) next 20 strokes arms, body and 1/2 slide (about 12 inches), and finish off with rowing 20 strokes at full slide. For a LSD workout ,I usually take 1 or 2 semi-hard 10 stroke piece (about 2:00 pace). The purpose is to get your heart rate up to roughly 50% of the way from resting pulse to maximum heart rate, and to also have your big rowing muscles ready to go. I then stop rowing, strap myself and start my workout. Here is a demo of the pick drill ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoQkcuWOtAw ).

3. As others have opined, add some variety. Feel free to take a short breaks every 15 - 20 minutes to drink some water, or change the TV channel, or find a new podcast, or whatever. I will sometimes set the drag at 10 -- makes you strong, or down to 2 -- makes you quick, or some place in between. I will also vary the wattage. As an example, 20 min @ 160W (2:09pace), have a drink and then 20 min @180W (2:05 pace), have a drink then 15 min @160W.

After March 31:

A. Once a week add some short High Intensity Interval Training aka "HIIT". This is to build your anaerobic (without oxygen) system and to prime your peak aerobic (with oxygen) system. My favorite (or most dreaded) is 10x1:00/1:00r (10x one minute on with one minute rest). Some alternatives are: 8x500/1:30r, 10x250m/1:00r, 10x1:00/0:30r. Make sure you get a good long warmup first (or row the first two intervals at a slower pace). You want to make sure you row these pieces in control and well and preferably with a slight negative split. Week 1, try them at a 2:00 pace, Week 2, a 1:55 pace, after that drop the pace by 1 - 2 seconds each week until you reach your plateau. After your set, give yourself a nice long 15-20min warmdown. Your pace for the 10x1:00/1:00r will by +/- 2s/500m your pace for 1000m and it will be 5 seconds (+/-2/sec) faster than your 2000m time.

B. Once a week some longer intervals or single distance pieces. These intervals should be done between 90% to 100% of all out effort. Suggestions all-out pieces 1k, 1.5k, 2k, 3k, 4k, 5k, 6k or 30 mins; Suggestions for long intervals, 3x1500m/3:00r, 4x1000/2:00r, 3x2000/3:00r, 2x10:00/3:30r, 3x5:00/2:00r, 3:7:00/3:00r. For all of theses piece, get a good warmup and warmdown.

C. Fill in everything else with LSDs.

On the various types of training ref: http://www.row2k.com/features/1035/Stay ... ear-Round/
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Re: Distance training to Speed Training

Postby hjs » February 15th, 2018, 4:04 am

David Pomerantz wrote:Carl,
I was thinking rating was an age thing too. Then as I got more into Row Pro, I started to think that there was perhaps a disconnect between strength and aerobic fitness. When I was younger I was much more cardio and much less strength. I’ve been wondering if my cardio had just declined so much. I’m just about to finish the first half of the 5K plan and actually have been pleased that my HR is staying down when I rate up. I’ve been thinking maybe there was some learning or training effect there. Tomorrow I have my second 6K time trial of the 14 week plan. That may be very informative for me.

Dave


Carl has given up racing, nothing to do with age, if you keep racing, you keep doing faster work.
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Re: Distance training to Speed Training

Postby mdpfirrman » February 15th, 2018, 11:23 am

jamesg wrote:
How do I transition to speed over distance once I have completed my challenge?


You'd probably be wasting your time, since the object of rowing is to get from one point to another with least effort, not to get there fast, since we usually have to come back too. Getting there and back is what you are doing already.

However, there are three steps, if you think you need to do it more like an oarsman:

Develop a good stroke by learning to row
Use that stroke at low rating
Use that stroke at high rating.

"Good" means plenty of work (which is Watts/Rating); exactly how much work depends on age, sex and size.

As a very rough guide, and since Work = average handle Force x net stroke Length, we can relate stroke work to size directly. Guessing that handle force = 60% weight and net length = 60% height, and using BMI = 25, we find:

Stroke Work = L x F = (H x 0.6) x (25 H² x 0.6) x g / 60 = 1.5 H³

So if you are height 1.9m, your stroke will be worth 10 Watt minutes (W'), and so on:
1.8 - 9 W'
1.7 - 7 W'
1.6 - 6 W'.

You get a discount for age and sex, maybe. My current discount (77y, 1,88, M) is about 40%. Youngsters of 60 get none.


The more I learn, the more I learn that sometimes simple advice (that is more complex than originally meets the eye) is fantastic. James, that part about the stroke is simply genius. I've gotten "gems" from guys like you and Henry in my 3 years on the forum. Training is a lot simpler than we all make it out to be many times.
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Re: Distance training to Speed Training

Postby Rubicon » February 15th, 2018, 4:39 pm

Remo wrote:Interesting. Your current workouts are Long Slow Distance aka "LSD" workouts. These are great workouts for basic fitness and they will make you faster. Additionally, this is the base workout for elite rower.

Since you set a goal of 10^6 m between Jan 1 and Mar 31, keep on it. But let me make a few suggestions:

1. Get a Heart Rate Monitor.

2. Add a 5 min. warmup. I like to start with rowing with feet out of the stretchers (which teaches balance and a good finish) and doing the "pick drill" (which teaches a coordinated stroke and a good catch). The pick drill is starting at the finish and (i) take 20 strokes arms only, followed by (ii) 20 strokes arms and body swing, (iii) then 20 strokes arms, body and 1/4 slide (about six inches), (iv) next 20 strokes arms, body and 1/2 slide (about 12 inches), and finish off with rowing 20 strokes at full slide. For a LSD workout ,I usually take 1 or 2 semi-hard 10 stroke piece (about 2:00 pace). The purpose is to get your heart rate up to roughly 50% of the way from resting pulse to maximum heart rate, and to also have your big rowing muscles ready to go. I then stop rowing, strap myself and start my workout. Here is a demo of the pick drill ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoQkcuWOtAw ).

3. As others have opined, add some variety. Feel free to take a short breaks every 15 - 20 minutes to drink some water, or change the TV channel, or find a new podcast, or whatever. I will sometimes set the drag at 10 -- makes you strong, or down to 2 -- makes you quick, or some place in between. I will also vary the wattage. As an example, 20 min @ 160W (2:09pace), have a drink and then 20 min @180W (2:05 pace), have a drink then 15 min @160W.

After March 31:

A. Once a week add some short High Intensity Interval Training aka "HIIT". This is to build your anaerobic (without oxygen) system and to prime your peak aerobic (with oxygen) system. My favorite (or most dreaded) is 10x1:00/1:00r (10x one minute on with one minute rest). Some alternatives are: 8x500/1:30r, 10x250m/1:00r, 10x1:00/0:30r. Make sure you get a good long warmup first (or row the first two intervals at a slower pace). You want to make sure you row these pieces in control and well and preferably with a slight negative split. Week 1, try them at a 2:00 pace, Week 2, a 1:55 pace, after that drop the pace by 1 - 2 seconds each week until you reach your plateau. After your set, give yourself a nice long 15-20min warmdown. Your pace for the 10x1:00/1:00r will by +/- 2s/500m your pace for 1000m and it will be 5 seconds (+/-2/sec) faster than your 2000m time.

B. Once a week some longer intervals or single distance pieces. These intervals should be done between 90% to 100% of all out effort. Suggestions all-out pieces 1k, 1.5k, 2k, 3k, 4k, 5k, 6k or 30 mins; Suggestions for long intervals, 3x1500m/3:00r, 4x1000/2:00r, 3x2000/3:00r, 2x10:00/3:30r, 3x5:00/2:00r, 3:7:00/3:00r. For all of theses piece, get a good warmup and warmdown.

C. Fill in everything else with LSDs.

On the various types of training ref: http://www.row2k.com/features/1035/Stay ... ear-Round/


Fantastic advice, thank you for taking the time to reply.
I will continue on my Million Metre quest then refer back to this post and hopefully progress to quicker and more impressive outcomes.

Thanks
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Re: Distance training to Speed Training

Postby Carl Watts » February 15th, 2018, 4:47 pm

hjs wrote:
David Pomerantz wrote:Carl,
I was thinking rating was an age thing too. Then as I got more into Row Pro, I started to think that there was perhaps a disconnect between strength and aerobic fitness. When I was younger I was much more cardio and much less strength. I’ve been wondering if my cardio had just declined so much. I’m just about to finish the first half of the 5K plan and actually have been pleased that my HR is staying down when I rate up. I’ve been thinking maybe there was some learning or training effect there. Tomorrow I have my second 6K time trial of the 14 week plan. That may be very informative for me.

Dave


Carl has given up racing, nothing to do with age, if you keep racing, you keep doing faster work.


True I'm no longer really interested in racing. These days I prefer just a really decent workout, loads of sweat with lots of power per stroke but still a high heartrate at the finish without feeling totally stuffed the next day. Currently its very hot here with temps in the 26-28 Deg C with really high humidity of over 80% and the heartrate at the end of a 30min at 18-19spm at 2:03 pace is still 180. You don't need to race to get fit.
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Re: Distance training to Speed Training

Postby hjs » February 15th, 2018, 5:50 pm

Carl Watts wrote:
True I'm no longer really interested in racing. These days I prefer just a really decent workout, loads of sweat with lots of power per stroke but still a high heartrate at the finish without feeling totally stuffed the next day. Currently its very hot here with temps in the 26-28 Deg C with really high humidity of over 80% and the heartrate at the end of a 30min at 18-19spm at 2:03 pace is still 180. You don't need to race to get fit.


So not age related. Us being the same age I get your not racing/doing TT, not so much physically, but mentally its tough.

Heat is great for sprinting, but hell for low rate endurance work yes.
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Re: Distance training to Speed Training

Postby David Pomerantz » February 15th, 2018, 9:01 pm

Carl,
I think I’ve read that you’re a row pro fan. How do you usually use it? Use standard rows, create your own, row with others on line, any specific plan? After I finish this 5K plan, I think I’ll most likely return to the low rate work; I’m finding that kind of pain seems to resonate with my body and mind.

Dave
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Re: Distance training to Speed Training

Postby Carl Watts » February 15th, 2018, 11:50 pm

David Pomerantz wrote:Carl,
I think I’ve read that you’re a row pro fan. How do you usually use it? Use standard rows, create your own, row with others on line, any specific plan? After I finish this 5K plan, I think I’ll most likely return to the low rate work; I’m finding that kind of pain seems to resonate with my body and mind.

Dave


What I find frustrating with RowPro is you don't need 90% of the package.

I only use it for Online rowing, there is an 04:30GMT early bird row for 30 minutes 5 days a week, its perfect.

Prefer to row with others, this means every row is different and the results are not so predictable and so it removes the boredom from just going up and down the slide 600 times or less.

No idea how people slog away in their basements on their own, but thats just me the mind needs to be doing something active at the same time as the body. For me its motivational.

With V4.3 you can tick the option box and see what others are rating, stoke by stoke and compare that to their pace. Its just more interesting to enguage with others online in the rowing and also the online Chat before and after the row and get to talk to others from around the world.
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Re: Distance training to Speed Training

Postby jamesg » February 16th, 2018, 3:01 am

James, that part about the stroke is simply genius.


Thanks, but the genius was Sir Isaac Newton. We can only apply his thought, hoping to get it right. Luckily for us, the C2 erg with a flywheel makes it easy.
77y, 188cm, 85kg, MHR 160. Last 2k (May 1018) 8.37@23
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Re: Distance training to Speed Training

Postby mitchel674 » February 17th, 2018, 10:09 am

jamesg wrote:

Develop a good stroke by learning to row
Use that stroke at low rating
Use that stroke at high rating.



@jamesg, this really is the most succinct, brilliant piece of advice I have read on this forum. Sadly, it has taken me 5 months of rowing and reading to accept this basic fact. All newbies should read this first and try to comprehend the simple wisdom.
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Re: Distance training to Speed Training

Postby jamesg » February 18th, 2018, 4:43 am

Well done, you've been quick about it, learning how took me years and seems never ending. The erg can never be like a shell that sings, but let's get as close as possible.
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