Erratic Start At Lactate Testing

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Postby [old] SlugButt » March 1st, 2006, 8:41 pm

Thanks very much for passing on your observations from the US 4. I don't remeber if it was Rowing Faster or some of the Lactate.com info, but I recall seeing something about putting in extra UT2 work as being a nice way to add to ones aerobic base without risking overtraining. I've been trying to put in some extra work in that range in addition to my normal schedule. <br /><br />Best of luck with trying out different splits! If you ever want to practice with someone online please let me know.<br /><br />David
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Postby [old] dougsurf » March 1st, 2006, 10:05 pm

<!--quoteo(post=58000:date=Mar 1 2006, 04:41 PM:name=SlugButt)--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(SlugButt @ Mar 1 2006, 04:41 PM) </b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Thanks very much for passing on your observations from the US 4. I don't remeber if it was Rowing Faster or some of the Lactate.com info, but I recall seeing something about putting in extra UT2 work as being a nice way to add to ones aerobic base without risking overtraining. I've been trying to put in some extra work in that range in addition to my normal schedule. <br /><br />Best of luck with trying out different splits! If you ever want to practice with someone online please let me know.<br /><br />David<br /> </td></tr></table><br />Thanks, will let you know. But now I'm back on water and training schedule getting to be a juggle.<br /><br />Adam had mentioned difficulty with the above graph and I agreed. So I just updated it, much improved I hope.
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Postby [old] adambalogh » March 2nd, 2006, 11:30 pm

hi Doug<br /><br />sorry for the delay in replying.<br />well, i created an excel graph of you HR and lactate data...and can't seem to paste it onto this post. if youd instruct me how to do that, i'll put in the chart to show you what i will now try to desribe.<br /><br />I'll try to describe what i observe.<br /><br />first - i was curious of your physical situation, because i wanted to ascertain if your curve might have been biased high (make you appear more fit) due to overtraining or ill health. doesn't seem like that is an issue.<br /><br />second - you are in excellent condition. for a 49 year old, you have an extremely high max HR. your UT2 training pace is 222 watts and HR of about 158, UT1 is 247 watts and HR of about 172, and AT is 278 watts and about 181 HR. these are stunning values. the lactate curve has a very long and low start and steep rise to the end. you AT heart rate is 96+% of your max HR.<br /><br />the typical 49 year old has a max HR of 177, yours is 187...they have a typical AT heart rate of 160, yours is 181.<br /><br />lastly, based on your 6:30 2k time, you have a VO2max over 58mls/kg/min.<br /><br />all these qualify you as "moose"<br /><br />how have you been training to get into this excellent condition?<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /> <br />
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Postby [old] dougsurf » March 3rd, 2006, 12:45 am

<!--quoteo(post=58233:date=Mar 2 2006, 07:30 PM:name=adambalogh)--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(adambalogh @ Mar 2 2006, 07:30 PM) </b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>hi Doug<br /><br />sorry for the delay in replying.<br />well, i created an excel graph of you HR and lactate data...and can't seem to paste it onto this post. if youd instruct me how to do that, i'll put in the chart to show you what i will now try to desribe.<br /><br />I'll try to describe what i observe.<br /><br />first - i was curious of your physical situation, because i wanted to ascertain if your curve might have been biased high (make you appear more fit) due to overtraining or ill health. doesn't seem like that is an issue.<br /><br />second - you are in excellent condition. for a 49 year old, you have an extremely high max HR. your UT2 training pace is 222 watts and HR of about 158, UT1 is 247 watts and HR of about 172, and AT is 278 watts and about 181 HR. these are stunning values. the lactate curve has a very long and low start and steep rise to the end. you AT heart rate is 96+% of your max HR.<br /><br />the typical 49 year old has a max HR of 177, yours is 187...they have a typical AT heart rate of 160, yours is 181.<br /><br />lastly, based on your 6:30 2k time, you have a VO2max over 58mls/kg/min.<br /><br />all these qualify you as "moose"<br /><br />how have you been training to get into this excellent condition?<br /> </td></tr></table><br />Hey Adam,<br /><br />Thank you for the glowing appraisal. I've been thinking the high HR was due to a heart the size of a sparrow's, but maybe it's not all bad. I am grateful for what performance I've been granted, but sit short of considering it stunning. All relative I guess. Dropping the next 10 seconds is as far away as it could be for anyone. <br /><br />As for how I got where I am, I wish I could tally up things such as pure discipline, the magic xyz plan, a billion meters, etc., but honestly, the bulk of it just happened. Got basic training in one year in college and took 30 years off. Kept active with a lot of cycling, weight lifting, snow sports, running, and windsurfing. Re-discovered rowing 3 years ago. My first 2k test was 7:20. Pretty horrible technique I imagine, but not all of that college training was gone. <br /><br />If there was a major factor, other than genetics, it would be the quick obsession with on the water rowing that hooked me into not missing a single team practice for my first year and more, right up to the point of an injury, and being totally obsessed with it for the duration. In that program, my score came down to 7:00 in about 3 months, and then to about 6:42 4 months later. That was the first time I thought "Hey, if I try, I might get good at this.". Most of our training, over the 3 or 4 days per week, was pretty high intensity stuff. Lactate training for the 1k season. Did a little steady state on my own, but not much. Then Fall came and with it 5k races and longer distance training. In parallel with that I tried improving erg scores, but discovered for the first time that it's possible to try too hard and not get what you want. Hit my first real wall at about 6:35 and grappled with that level in the month leading to my first C2 Satellite event. Adrenaline and lots of noise helped push me 0.3 sec below 6:30 then. Shortly thereafter, lifting a boat off of a trailer, my left bicep separated entirely from my lower arm. Definitely slowed my progress. 2 years later, still about there.<br /><br />So in that story, I think you'll see the quick start and plateau that has been written about elsewhere, by Xeno and others, reflective of a high intensity program. If I have farther to go, it will take something new, which I hope to find in a new committment to much more steady state training, intelligently designed with the help of lactate testing.<br /><br />But what I'm really proud of, more than any erg scores, are these way cool graphs I'm learning to generate! Did you see the re-post I did above? Now I can post pictures AND go edit them later!! I'll tell you how, but I'm going to post it again here. Let me know what you think. I used the matlab software that I have at work which has a cubic splines function for generating curves.<br /><br /><img src="http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f85/dougsurf/LactateProfiles01.jpg" border="0" alt="IPB Image" /><br /><br />After some begging online I learned myself (FAQ thread. Thanks again Mark.). Use the webpage www.photobucket.com. Save any image there and it will keep it and assign a url for it. That's the url you enter after pushing the "insert image" button above. Am still interested in your excel graphs. Would like to know how to improve the axes formatting and do some curve fitting, if that's possible.<br /><br />Finally, your first point can't be ignored. I overtrained to the worst degree ever just a couple months ago and still don't feel recovered, and had a nasty cold for the last month, which I still have subtle symptoms of. FWIW.<br /><br />Thanks again,<br />Moose
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Postby [old] Alissa » March 3rd, 2006, 12:55 am

<!--quoteo(post=58233:date=Mar 2 2006, 07:30 PM:name=adambalogh)--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(adambalogh @ Mar 2 2006, 07:30 PM) </b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>well, i created an excel graph of you HR and lactate data...and can't seem to paste it onto this post. if youd instruct me how to do that, i'll put in the chart to show you what i will now try to desribe. </td></tr></table><br />Adam, there are a couple of options you might try:<br /><br />Option 1. Use the "code" function when posting. If your data is simply columns of figures, try copying and pasting from your spreadsheet using the "code" button above (has # on it). First click the code button, then paste your data, then click the code button again. This will stabilize the relative positions of your text columns. Use the "Preview Post" button below to see if this is what you want. If so, you're done.<br /><br />Option 2. Use excel, a graphics program & a photo hosting site. Depending on the version of Excel you use, you may be able to print your graph to a tiff file (file, print, properties, advanced tab, choose "TIFF" as the Output format and then browse to your desktop, click "ok" to close the properties window and then ok to print to file) Then go to your desktop (or wherever you chose to print the file). This is from Excel 2003...if your version is different and doesn't work this way, then use the "help" and search for TIFF...it should give you directions.<br /><br />Then go to the saved tiff file, right-click and choose "open in" and select your graphics program (I use photoshop). Use your graphics program to convert the tiff file to a jpg (try "save as" and select jpg as the format. Once you have a graphic image, upload it to a photohosting site (like pbase.com, flickr.com, or photobucket.com). Once you have the image there, check the site for details for what url to use when direct linking. Then in your post, use the little picture button above, put in the direct linking url you determined on your photo-hosting site and you're done. (It takes longer to describe than to do it.) <br /><br />Option 3. This is mostly the same as Option 2, but instead of printing to a TIFF file, if you have a graph that can be cut & pasted, you may be able copy and past from excel directly into your graphics program, then save it as a jpg and proceed as above.<br /><br />HTH,<br /><br />Alissa
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Postby [old] SlugButt » March 3rd, 2006, 11:52 am

<br />Wow!<br /><br />Truly impressive conditioning . . . really neat looking graphs . . . Throw in a pizza and a cool electronic device that can be operated with a remote control and I'd say you've come as close to nirvana as is possible. <br /><br />In terms of furthering conditioning, I'd love to learn what folks think about progressing further once one has leveled off in gains. I'm 40 and started sculling again about 3 years ago. I was able to eek out a 6:26 on the erg after about six months, overtrained, fell apart, and started over again focusing on increasing my aerobic base and gradually expanding my training volume. Initially, I lost speed (some of that due to injury) and then steadily regained. I realize that I'm never going to see the splits that I could manage when I was younger. However, my gains this winter have been significantly slower and I still haven't moved under 6:20. The folks who are absolutely smoking me in sculling during the summer are a good deal faster than that (relative to their weight).<br /><br />My understanding is that it take about five years to put in a decent aerobic base, and that in the good old days of East Germany they gave up on the Ratzberg crew strategies of lots of intervals in favor of long and low pieces since they found their athletes peaked with the former strategy and then improved no further (please correct me if my info is wrong!). <br /><br />I would be very grateful for any thoughts on how to nudge my training along. At present, I practice about 1-1.5 hours/day (1 day off/week), and have am following a plan that seems to be keeping me injury-free. It's different from my prior training (based on "Shut up and row harder" theory of training), which included a greater percentage of training such as 3-4 x 15 minutes of full tilt boogie followed by 45 minutes of biking or erging in the neighborhood of UT1. <br /><br />Many thanks for any suggestions folks can offer! If I can be pulling pieces like Doug in nine years I will be very proud of myself!<br /><br />David
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Postby [old] adambalogh » March 5th, 2006, 1:38 pm

Doug and Allisa<br /><br />thanks for the computer coaching. i've managed to save the excel graph as a tiff file. i seem to be stuck at this point however, as don't think i have a photo-whatever program.<br /><br />nonethess, Doug, are you able to to place both your HR and Lactate data on the same graph with watts on the x axis (lactate on the right Y axis, and HR on the left Y axis). this is not NECESSARY, but would be helpful in visualizing your HR and lactate simultaneously. i think you have a very good understanding of the paces for your various training levels. from what i've read, use the HR as a guide, but follow the paces more closely than HR.<br /><br />essentially, i see a very well developed (ie, fit) athlete. the greatest improvement will come from improved technique ... and strategy. the technique i will presume you accomplish via rowing coach. let me know if this is incorrect assumption. strategy - what is your ultimate goal? is is fastest 2k you can pull? is it longer work?<br /><br />Adam<br />
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Postby [old] Citroen » March 5th, 2006, 2:21 pm

<!--quoteo(post=58533:date=Mar 5 2006, 05:38 PM:name=adambalogh)--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(adambalogh @ Mar 5 2006, 05:38 PM) </b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> i've managed to save the excel graph as a tiff file. i seem to be stuck at this point however, as don't think i have a photo-whatever program. </td></tr></table><br /><br /><a href="http://www.irfanview.com" target="_blank">http://www.irfanview.com</a> will convert tiff files to png, jpeg or gif. And the price is just right.<br />If you need something more than that install the GNU Image Manipulation Program (GIMP). It also has exactly the right price.
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Postby [old] dougsurf » March 5th, 2006, 7:15 pm

<!--quoteo(post=58533:date=Mar 5 2006, 09:38 AM:name=adambalogh)--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(adambalogh @ Mar 5 2006, 09:38 AM) </b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Doug and Allisa<br /><br />thanks for the computer coaching. i've managed to save the excel graph as a tiff file. i seem to be stuck at this point however, as don't think i have a photo-whatever program.<br /><br />nonethess, Doug, are you able to to place both your HR and Lactate data on the same graph with watts on the x axis (lactate on the right Y axis, and HR on the left Y axis). this is not NECESSARY, but would be helpful in visualizing your HR and lactate simultaneously. i think you have a very good understanding of the paces for your various training levels. from what i've read, use the HR as a guide, but follow the paces more closely than HR.<br /><br />essentially, i see a very well developed (ie, fit) athlete. the greatest improvement will come from improved technique ... and strategy. the technique i will presume you accomplish via rowing coach. let me know if this is incorrect assumption. strategy - what is your ultimate goal? is is fastest 2k you can pull? is it longer work?<br /><br />Adam<br /> </td></tr></table><br />Hi Adam,<br /><br />Try www.photobucket.com. I think you can upload your tiff there and get a URL assigned.<br /><br />My rowing coach hasn't yelled at me for technique in quite some time, so I don't think I'm far off. Still, someday maybe I'll use the "record" feature of this webcam I use, and if possible post some footage of me taking a few strokes. That'll take a new lesson in how to attach stuff here. I do find that webcam to be an invaluable tool. It's very cheap, and I set it up along side so i can see my profile on screen ahead of me at the same time I watch ergmonitor. So if I can figure out how to post it, I may subject myself to the mass' opinions. Would rather not morph this thread from lactate monitoring into technique though, if I could help it.<br /><br />My goal is definitely 2k. And my new thinking is that it really doesn't matter what length you're (I'm) after. That better aerobic conditioning will help all distances. In my charts, I'll be fine if my HR vs. lactate level never changes, I think. I'd just like wattage to increase for the same HR and lactate level. Hey, who wouldn't? Will see in a few months of more aggressive steady state work.<br /><br />It will be aggressive. Even at 1:56, long distances feel far more taxing than the 1:58 to 2:00 I was used to. So I'm just going to stick there for a while, and at 1.6 mmol, until it feels better to push it. And, a complication is that I'm rowing for the club at the San Diego Crew Classic in a few weeks. So much for my committment to take it easy. He's had us sprinting pretty hard at practice lately. A bit tough doing enough steady state just to compensate for that.<br /><br />- Doug
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Postby [old] neilb » March 6th, 2006, 4:19 pm

I attended a local university sports science lab last year for some testing to include lactate and VO2. For what it is worth to anyone the results were as follows.<br /><br />Step test was 7 x 4 min with 1 min rests during which blood samples taken.<br /><br />Pace lactate HR<br /><br />2:12 1.48 106<br />2:04 0.82 122<br />1:58 0.80 129<br />1:53 1.54 138<br />1:49 2.61 148<br />1:45 3.60 160<br />1:42 5.62 169<br /><br />Lactate threshold plotted at 129 bpm 1:58 and anaerobic threshold at 154 bpm 1:47.<br /><br />This was then used to set training bands e.g. UT1 set at 1:52 - 1:47. This felt quite hard as I was able to hold a 60 min steady session at around 1:52 but staying lower tahn that was a challenge. I think it showed me that I could actually work a bit harder at each level than I had thought.<br /><br />Unfortunately not able to do max HR test on the day so not sure how the suggested HRs bear out although using 220 - age and adjusted for HRR the AT work is around 80-85%. <br /><br />Training has slipped a bit since then but I will get it back and then probably re test in a couple of months.<br /><br />Interesting experience.<br /><br />Neil B.
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