Concept 2 D problem

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Oizo
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Concept 2 D problem

Post by Oizo » June 8th, 2019, 6:21 pm

Hi guys!
Just get my used D-PM3 model, and seems that there is "something wrong". There is almost no difference (but it is, if pull stick with fingers :D)between 1 and 10 modes, any one know why that can happen? Or is it normal?
Also computer show zeros, when rowing, already ordered new sensor for fix, hope that helps...
Excuse me for my english, hope here i will get help with my questions!

lindsayh
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Re: Concept 2 D problem

Post by lindsayh » June 9th, 2019, 9:22 am

Oizo wrote:
June 8th, 2019, 6:21 pm
Hi guys! Just get my used D-PM3 model, and seems that there is "something wrong". There is almost no difference (but it is, if pull stick with fingers :D)between 1 and 10 modes, any one know why that can happen? Or is it normal?
Also computer show zeros, when rowing, already ordered new sensor for fix, hope that helps...
Excuse me for my english, hope here i will get help with my questions!
don't much about the sensor part but the lack of difference between 0 and 10 will almost certainly be because there is dirt in the fan and that is preventing air getting in - it needs a clean! Search here for how to clean it - not hard. Until your PM is working you wont be able to measure the drag factor but that is what you will need to do.
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jackarabit
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Re: Concept 2 D problem

Post by jackarabit » June 9th, 2019, 1:04 pm

If I understand the OP, he observes difference in drag at different lever positions, monitor does not register changes. May be a relatively clean machine.

Sensor cable is cheaper than replacement monitor. Getting the dust out cheaper still. Learn cleaning procedure while waiting for part.
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Oizo
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Re: Concept 2 D problem

Post by Oizo » June 9th, 2019, 5:09 pm

Hi! Just found my multimeter, black wire is broken somewhere, so desicion to order new sensor was right. Hope anyway, that problem is not in pm3.
I have everything vacuum cleaned and cleaned everything with wet rag after.

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jackarabit
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Re: Concept 2 D problem

Post by jackarabit » June 9th, 2019, 7:39 pm

Now you have.verified continuity loss sensor pickup cable, I’m confident the PM will come back to life. 👍
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Re: Concept 2 D problem

Post by Oizo » June 11th, 2019, 12:16 pm

One more question.
Very first "row" at start is needs a my normal pull power, but second and all others "rows" needs power only when chain is already out for about 30cm...OR to get same pull power as first, I should wait about 5 seconds before next pull...
so here is the question, whats wrong? Should i replace "overrunning clutch"? Or what? My rhythm is about 2 secs pull, and 3 in.
If you know what part to change, please drop link to part at official site, thank you.

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Re: Concept 2 D problem

Post by Oizo » June 11th, 2019, 6:22 pm


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jackarabit
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Re: Concept 2 D problem

Post by jackarabit » June 11th, 2019, 7:37 pm

Not the sprocket! Not the clutch bearing. One does not pull against a fixed resistance as one does when using a magnetic or friction brake trainer. One pulls to CREATE resistance by pumping a fluid (air). One creates said resistance by :

1) pulling as quickly as possible at catch to match the angular velocity of the coasting flywheel, thereby engaging the clutch bearing needles with minimal unengaged chain travel.

2) continuing to pull quickly and forcefully through the entire drive phase to create acceleration of the flywheel.

Tweak the rower before tweaking the machine.
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Ombrax
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Re: Concept 2 D problem

Post by Ombrax » June 11th, 2019, 9:16 pm

Oizo wrote:
June 11th, 2019, 12:16 pm
One more question.
Very first "row" at start is needs a my normal pull power, but second and all others "rows" needs power only when chain is already out for about 30cm...OR to get same pull power as first, I should wait about 5 seconds before next pull...
so here is the question, whats wrong? Should i replace "overrunning clutch"? Or what? My rhythm is about 2 secs pull, and 3
Oizo,

The C2 web site has lots of helpful videos on how to row. Check them out. You don't wait for the next stroke. It's a continual process, and you should be at around 20-24 strokes per minute. (When you PM is working it will tell you your stroke rate.)

Here some info on the C2 site: https://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/ ... que-videos

You have to push forcefully with your legs. If you don't you won't go fast and it will feel super easy.

Good Luck

Oizo
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Re: Concept 2 D problem

Post by Oizo » June 12th, 2019, 2:19 am

Ombrax wrote:
June 11th, 2019, 9:16 pm
Oizo wrote:
June 11th, 2019, 12:16 pm
One more question.
Very first "row" at start is needs a my normal pull power, but second and all others "rows" needs power only when chain is already out for about 30cm...OR to get same pull power as first, I should wait about 5 seconds before next pull...
so here is the question, whats wrong? Should i replace "overrunning clutch"? Or what? My rhythm is about 2 secs pull, and 3
Oizo,

The C2 web site has lots of helpful videos on how to row. Check them out. You don't wait for the next stroke. It's a continual process, and you should be at around 20-24 strokes per minute. (When you PM is working it will tell you your stroke rate.)

Here some info on the C2 site: https://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/ ... que-videos

You have to push forcefully with your legs. If you don't you won't go fast and it will feel super easy.

Good Luck
Exactly I don’t need to wait with strokes. Look at video beginning, woman got good pulling movements JUST at BEGINNING of every movement, as it should be normal. In mine c2 I got that kind of pulling resistance ONLY after when chain comes out for free about 30cm... not depends how hard I pull with legs. To feel same every movement resistance in beginning of movement, I should wait some 5
seconds to fan slow down for a while. Still think that problem is in carriage, because what else? Will inspect it today properly.

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Ombrax
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Re: Concept 2 D problem

Post by Ombrax » June 12th, 2019, 2:59 am

Oizo wrote:
June 12th, 2019, 2:19 am
In mine c2 I got that kind of pulling resistance ONLY after when chain comes out for free about 30cm... not depends how hard I pull with legs. To feel same every movement resistance in beginning of movement, I should wait some 5
seconds to fan slow down for a while. Still think that problem is in carriage, because what else? Will inspect it today properly.
You may need to oil the sprocket clutch. I believe that that trick is getting access to it. (I've never had to do that on my Model C.)

If you search the forum you'll find quite a few threads that discuss this.

Here's one, for example: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=186135&p=471096

Oizo
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Re: Concept 2 D problem

Post by Oizo » June 12th, 2019, 4:09 am

Ombrax wrote:
June 12th, 2019, 2:59 am
Oizo wrote:
June 12th, 2019, 2:19 am
In mine c2 I got that kind of pulling resistance ONLY after when chain comes out for free about 30cm... not depends how hard I pull with legs. To feel same every movement resistance in beginning of movement, I should wait some 5
seconds to fan slow down for a while. Still think that problem is in carriage, because what else? Will inspect it today properly.
You may need to oil the sprocket clutch. I believe that that trick is getting access to it. (I've never had to do that on my Model C.)

If you search the forum you'll find quite a few threads that discuss this.

Here's one, for example: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=186135&p=471096
Thank you, will try it.

jamesg
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Re: Concept 2 D problem

Post by jamesg » June 12th, 2019, 2:11 pm

That's perfectly normal: save at the first stroke, the flywheel is spinning, so before the clutch can engage we must accelerate ourselves to flywheel speed. This speed at the catch is about 1 m/s. If you are familar with Newtonian dynamics, the sums are quite simple: F=Ma and V²=2as.

The harder we push with our legs at the catch the sooner the chain engages and the work on the handle begins. Rowing at low ratings (18-22) lets the fan slow down, so makes the catch quicker, lengthening the stroke.

You any need to adjust your technique; rowing is a tricky business, it's not like lifting a stationary weight off the floor. Everything moves, and fast, so we have to move fast too.
78y, 188cm, 87kg, last seen MHR 163. 2k (24 May 19) 8.46.6@22

Oizo
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Re: Concept 2 D problem

Post by Oizo » June 12th, 2019, 4:08 pm

jamesg wrote:
June 12th, 2019, 2:11 pm
That's perfectly normal: save at the first stroke, the flywheel is spinning, so before the clutch can engage we must accelerate ourselves to flywheel speed. This speed at the catch is about 1 m/s. If you are familar with Newtonian dynamics, the sums are quite simple: F=Ma and V²=2as.

The harder we push with our legs at the catch the sooner the chain engages and the work on the handle begins. Rowing at low ratings (18-22) lets the fan slow down, so makes the catch quicker, lengthening the stroke.

You any need to adjust your technique; rowing is a tricky business, it's not like lifting a stationary weight off the floor. Everything moves, and fast, so we have to move fast too.
Absolutely agree about adjusting of my technique, still working on it. Also, when will change the sensor, PM will help a lot with rhythm.

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Ombrax
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Re: Concept 2 D problem

Post by Ombrax » June 12th, 2019, 7:38 pm

So we still haven't come to an agreement on whether the issue is due to a problem with the flywheel sprocket clutch not engaging properly, or a problem with the OP not being sufficiently familiar with the erg and how it behaves at the catch.

I'm not a rowing instructor, but hopefully someone here who's more familiar with the teaching aspects of rowing will be able to describe things well enough for the OP to figure out what's going on.

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