What does this bug mean for indoor racing?

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ex1580
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What does this bug mean for indoor racing?

Post by ex1580 » November 8th, 2018, 6:39 pm

I submitted this bug to Concept2 via a support ticket when it first came out and they seemed to ignore it. They should be able to automatically detect and remove these workouts from the logbook. The latest firmware on my PM5 still has this bug.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOtaVoXVNQI

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Re: What does this bug mean for indoor racing?

Post by Citroen » November 8th, 2018, 9:27 pm

It's a known feature of the PM2/PM2+/PM3/PM4/PM5

It's the reason for rule #3 at: https://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/ ... ace-advice
At races, there is no prescribed damper setting so you are free to set the damper anywhere you want as long as you don't change it during the race. See Damper Setting 101 for more information.
My emphasis.

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Re: What does this bug mean for indoor racing?

Post by ex1580 » November 8th, 2018, 9:41 pm

It's not about changing the damper, it's about one hard stroke, wait 6 seconds, then go for it but get a magically better time. The description of the video is interesting.

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Re: What does this bug mean for indoor racing?

Post by Citroen » November 8th, 2018, 9:56 pm

Write an email to rowing@concept2.com with your concerns.

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Re: What does this bug mean for indoor racing?

Post by ex1580 » November 8th, 2018, 10:25 pm

I did, they didn't do anything.

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Re: What does this bug mean for indoor racing?

Post by ex1580 » November 8th, 2018, 11:02 pm

OK, after some digging around I guess they fixed it with the latest firmware but I still got odd numbers on my machine today which has the latest firmware. But most gyms dont update firmware so I hope they are going through and invalidating results with a big pause after the first stroke. I hope people are better than cheating but probably not.

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Re: What does this bug mean for indoor racing?

Post by Citroen » November 9th, 2018, 7:10 am

99.9% of all folks who use an ergo do not care about the numbers. The small minority who do are probably the same group that will keep their firmware updated.

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Re: What does this bug mean for indoor racing?

Post by ex1580 » November 9th, 2018, 8:29 am

This topic is about racing. I think 99.9% of those people do care where they finish. As we've seen in other sports such as biking and running, whenever it comes down to "how fast can you go" there's always people trying to game the system. Thinking anything less is naive.

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Re: What does this bug mean for indoor racing?

Post by Citroen » November 9th, 2018, 11:07 am

The venue race software has an option to check firmware on the monitors. If C2 are running the race they'll always use factory fresh machines that should be loaded with the latest stable firmware.

When I ran races I'd borrow 20 ergos from Concept2 (they weren't quite factory fresh as they were the loan pool) but they would have recent firmware.

I think you're worrying about something that isn't an empirical problem.

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Re: What does this bug mean for indoor racing?

Post by ex1580 » November 9th, 2018, 11:16 am

I disagree about it not being a problem but it's probably not going to accomplish anything arguing with you. Instead it would be nice to see C2 implement a check in the logbook looking for that 6 sec break. Should be easy and inexpensive for them. Also, it would be nice if Ergdata could update firmware which they tell me they are working on.

Runners thought cheating wasn't an issue until someone looked at the data, and we all know about cycling. https://www.marathoninvestigation.com

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Re: What does this bug mean for indoor racing?

Post by Citroen » November 9th, 2018, 11:47 am

Have you written an email to rowing@concept2.com because they won't see your requirement until you do so?

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Re: What does this bug mean for indoor racing?

Post by ex1580 » November 9th, 2018, 12:19 pm

Yes, back in March. I mentioned two topics in the email and they ignored that one. Maybe they just missed it. I just emailed them again today to follow up. I'm trying to maintain the Integrity of the sport. Without Integrity it's not even worth showing up for a race. Thanks!

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Re: What does this bug mean for indoor racing?

Post by ex1580 » November 9th, 2018, 6:19 pm

C2 support got back to me and told me that they currently have no intention of checking for this bug in the logbook, but they will review individual records if you ask. They also tested updating firmware from phones but over Bluetooth it was too slow so they are not going that route at this time. Maybe someday. Too bad because that would have been pretty effective to update firmware with phones. I've been in a lot of gyms who have no intention of using a computer to update them because it's "too hard" and/or doesn't contribute to their bottom line. I use a USB drive myself because it's so portable.

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Re: What does this bug mean for indoor racing?

Post by jamesg » November 10th, 2018, 5:49 am

Without Integrity it's not even worth showing up for a race
The one stroke and stop trick works in Just Row, because the PM clock stops when I stop, 6s after the last pull. This holds the average Watts constant. Not in other modes. Maybe you have some other trick?

If in intervals, fixed distances/times and racing I fall off but then decide to carry on, legitimately, time doesn't wait for me, so the average Watts continues to drop.

If in a race I stop and wait for the flywheel to stop, to try to exploit the zero speed problem, the delay time will be a lot longer than 6 seconds and the average Watts will reflect this.
77y, 188cm, 85kg, MHR 160. Last 2k (May 1018) 8.37@23

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Re: What does this bug mean for indoor racing?

Post by ex1580 » November 10th, 2018, 8:17 am

When I tested this it did not matter what mode I was in.

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