How Hard Should The Handle Hit Your Belly?

[[old] MarcusLL]

I do the vast majority of my rowing strapless 10m/stroke in an effort to learn to be efficient - it occurred to me this lunchtime that at the far end of the stroke the handle hits my belly pretty hard. On the one hand this seems pretty inefficient, but on the other hand, I found it pretty hard not to do it. Does anyone reduce the force they provide with their arms perfectly so the handle comes to rest against their waist without additional force?

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-MarcusLL+Nov 3 2005, 08:57 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(MarcusLL @ Nov 3 2005, 08:57 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I do the vast majority of my rowing strapless 10m/stroke in an effort to learn to be efficient - it occurred to me this lunchtime that at the far end of the stroke the handle hits my belly pretty hard.  On the one hand this seems pretty inefficient, but on the other hand, I found it pretty hard not to do it.  Does anyone reduce the force they provide with their arms perfectly so the handle comes to rest against their waist without additional force? <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I'd disagree that the handle ever "comes to rest", but the impact into the body should be kept to a minimum. Unless you are cross training for the boxing ring...

[[old] MarcusLL]

He he - I think an argument about whether you can go from going in one direction to going in the opposite direction without coming to rest at some point in between would be best taken to another forum . . .<br /><br />But you're basically saying that you pull less hard with your arms at the very end of the stroke than you do (say) 10 inches from the end?

[[old] Ray79]

Your hands should be travelling at their fastest near the end of the stroke not slowing down. This is where the flywheel is travelling its fastest (after the leg drive) and where the fast muscles in your arms can be used more effectively. That is keeping up the speed of the wheel while applying little pressure (your legs are much better for this).<br /><br />I almost always allow the handle to hit my belly, but not slam into it. The handle mostly just brushes against it on the initial phase of the recovery. I draw fairly high (just below your pecs) and sit back well. This gives me the room for a good tap down at the finish and get your hands away quickly across the knees.

[[old] michaelb]

I am glad you asked this question again. When I am rowing longer distances I don't do this, but in my recent 500m time trial and/or intervals, I tend to beat my stomach silly. I know I am doing something wrong, but it is hard to limit the handle acceleration at the end of the stroke and maintain the same pace/force.<br /><br />This problem may not be amenable to an easy fix either, and I suspect it could a result of broader timing and sequence issues in my stroke. Or, since I rarely row 500m sprints or intervals, it could be that my stroke is fine at slower SRs and that my technique is falling apart at high rates.<br /><br />I will get a better idea of the scope of this problem for me this weekend in the 1k.

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-MarcusLL+Nov 3 2005, 09:12 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(MarcusLL @ Nov 3 2005, 09:12 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->He he - I think an argument about whether you can go from going in one direction to going in the opposite direction without coming to rest at some point in between would be best taken to another forum . . .<br /><br />But you're basically saying that you pull less hard with your arms at the very end of the stroke than you do (say) 10 inches from the end? <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Well, okay, there has to be a stop of some sort to reverse direction, but it doesn't have to be very long (1/30th of a second should do). <br /><br />Yes, I'm saying that the pressure on the handle falls to zero as it approaches the belly, there doesn't need to be much of a concerted effort to do this, as there is no way the arms and back can hold the same force that was established by the legs. Of course that applies only when really putting in a hard effort, but everything should scale back proportionately during easier workloads. i.e. The character of the Force curve stays the same, but the amplitude changes. If you are able to increase pressure on the handle coming to the finish, I'd say that you have not used your legs and hips very well at all. A good finish is the result of a good catch, a good catch only happens with a good recovery, and a good recovery can only begin from a good finish. There we go, the perfect search for the endless stroke once again.

[[old] mpukita]

Form-wise, it's better to aim for the sternum for the finish, rather than the belly, no?

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-mpukita+Nov 3 2005, 10:50 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(mpukita @ Nov 3 2005, 10:50 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Form-wise, it's better to aim for the sternum for the finish, rather than the belly, no? <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I generally instruct to finish in the area of the bottom of the sternum, the belly just happens to get in the way for some of us.... <br /><br />This also relates to the Erg Vs Boat discussion, finishing higher can help the Erg score, but it's not something that can be done in a boat. Those that do finish high, tend to not have a level handle path, as it goes up at the finish, pretty much exactly the opposite as what would be required in the boat.

[[old] Ray79]

I draw fairly level both on the erg and in the boat. You have to do it in the boat or you are in for a very bumpy ride. But i was always taught to have a solid sit back at the finish. Is this the right thing to be doing Paul?<br /><br />It is because of this that even with a level draw the blade handle is able to brush just below the sternum ( in sweep rowing anyway)<br /><br />Oh and when I say a solid sit back at the finish I dont mean like this<br /><br /><a href='http://www.nlroei.nl/Fotoboek-display-40424.html' target='_blank'>http://www.nlroei.nl/Fotoboek-display-40424.html</a><br /><a href='http://www.nlroei.nl/Fotoboek-display-40033.html' target='_blank'>http://www.nlroei.nl/Fotoboek-display-40033.html</a><br /><br />I dont go to these extremes

[[old] Xeno]

The handle and finish position, from what I was taught and am coaching now, travels right below the chest line and "touches" the shirt or what ever you are wearing. You feel a slight touch to the skin with the handle.<br />XENO

[[old] Ray79]

<!--QuoteBegin-Xeno+Nov 3 2005, 02:34 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Xeno @ Nov 3 2005, 02:34 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The handle and finish position, from what I was taught and am coaching now, travels right below the chest line and "touches" the shirt or what ever you are wearing.  You feel a slight touch to the skin with the handle.<br />XENO <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I was taught the same.........Thank God im not alone in this. And going by your past record Xeno, it served you quite well.<br /><br />We sometimes had to wear white t-shirts for outings. If you didnt have a mark on yours when we were finished from where the handle touched you, there was trouble.

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-Ray79+Nov 3 2005, 11:27 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Ray79 @ Nov 3 2005, 11:27 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I draw fairly level both on the erg and in the boat. You have to do it in the boat or you are in for a very bumpy ride. But i was always taught to have a solid sit back at the finish. Is this the right thing to be doing Paul?<br /><br />It is because of this that even with a level draw the blade handle is able to brush just below the sternum ( in sweep rowing anyway)<br /><br />Oh and when I say a solid sit back at the finish I dont mean like this<br /><br /><a href='http://www.nlroei.nl/Fotoboek-display-40424.html' target='_blank'>http://www.nlroei.nl/Fotoboek-display-40424.html</a><br /><a href='http://www.nlroei.nl/Fotoboek-display-40033.html' target='_blank'>http://www.nlroei.nl/Fotoboek-display-40033.html</a><br /><br />I dont go to these extremes       <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />How'd I know the CAN's were going to be brought into this... <br /><br />To me, the "sit back" would have a bit of a "C" shape to the torso and the head and shoulders remain very stable and balanced. If one gets too far back the head starts bobbing up and down which the Polish lwts seem to make work, but looks a little strange.<br /><br />Yes, what you are doing sounds good to me.

[[old] FrankJ]

Just a little story about how hard the handle hits my belly. I had converted my model C to a model D handle. The model D handle has some curve to it so you can come back a little farther before touching your belly. I had been using my erg this way for a couple of weeks and went to the local YMCA for some weight work. For a warm up I jumped on their model C with the old style handle took a couple of easy pulls then started rowing normally. Well I pulled that model C wooden handle back so far and hard I gave myself a nice bruise. Just comparing the handles it appears that the model D has about a half inch more belly clearance than the model C's handle. That half inch turned a light touch into a bruise. <br /><br />Frank

[[old] NightRower]

So, if I make my belly larger, I would have to pull less with the handle as it would hit my belly faster; making my workouts easier ...........<br /><br /> <br /><br />Darren

[[old] rspenger]

<!--QuoteBegin-Ray79+Nov 3 2005, 12:27 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(Ray79 @ Nov 3 2005, 12:27 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I draw fairly level both on the erg and in the boat. You have to do it in the boat or you are in for a very bumpy ride. But i was always taught to have a solid sit back at the finish. Is this the right thing to be doing Paul?<br /><br />It is because of this that even with a level draw the blade handle is able to brush just below the sternum ( in sweep rowing anyway)<br /><br />Oh and when I say a solid sit back at the finish I dont mean like this<br /><br /><a href='http://www.nlroei.nl/Fotoboek-display-40424.html' target='_blank'>http://www.nlroei.nl/Fotoboek-display-40424.html</a><br /><a href='http://www.nlroei.nl/Fotoboek-display-40033.html' target='_blank'>http://www.nlroei.nl/Fotoboek-display-40033.html</a><br /><br />I dont go to these extremes       <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Were those photos for real or were they just fooling around? They reminded me of my first time at Poughkeepsie in 1947. There was one crew there that was still using the pre-Conibear stroke. It had been over 30 years since the Conibear stroke (aka the American or Washington stroke) had been introduced. By this time most of the major college crews had coaches who had been trained in the new stroke, but this one school had a coach who stuck with the old style, with its extreme layback. He had a strong crew and the oarsmen all had fantastic abs from doing almost a full situp on each stroke. However, come race time, they were dead last out of at least eight crews. That was the last year that any school stuck with that outdated style. I just can’t believe that anyone is seriously going back to it.<br /><br />Regards,<br /><br />Bob S.<br />