Lightweights

[[old] row4lyfe]

hello! i had a question: should lightweight rowers have a higher stroke rating (for example, for a 2k) than heavyweight rowers?

[[old] chickenlegs]

what do you mean by 'should'?<br /><br />they usually do (have higher stroke rates), both on and off the water, simply because they are usually shorter, therefore have to cover a shorter distance (shorter drive), and if they go at the same speed, they will be able to do it (stroke rate) more often.<br /><br />the higher stroke rate partially compensates for the shorter stroke and other physical handicaps that lightweights often have compared to heavyweights (such as smaller muscle masses, smaller heart, smaller lungs).<br /><br />however, even rating a few beats higher, heavyweights usually mantain a 10-20 sec. margin on the erg and a slightly smaller on the water (on the water, where the objective is to move the total mass of boat + rower(s), the extra weight is a handicap for heavyweights, while on the erg, which is stationary and the accelerated mass is the flywheel which is constant for all categories, it does not matter).<br /><br />

[[old] dennish]

I don't think there is any black and white answer to that. Too many variables with what each individual brings to the game. Additionaly rates will change with fitness levels, flexibility, experience, etc. . I erged for years, both training and racing at 32 to 34. Currently I do the bulk of my training at around 25/26 but paces faster than when I was at 32-34, but my last race was at 34-36. Sorry probably not the clear cut answer you were looking for. dennis

[[old] Jim Barry]

At this years British Championships the fastest LW (Mark Hunter 6:09.8) rowed most of the piece in and around 30spm. The fastest HW (Jamie Schroeder) 5:44 rowed most of the time at 32. <br /><br />Second and third fastest LWs were 32 spm. The second fastest HW, Graham Benton rowed very steady under 30spm, but the 3rd and 4th fastest HW were somewhere in the 33 to 34 range. <br /><br />At least for this Championship, the LW's tended to rate lower than their HW counterparts in their racing. In both classes the racing was very good. Mark Hunter was less than a second off the Championship Record held by Eskild Ebessen (known to rate high for his erg pieces as I've heard). <br /><br />The race results this year gave us a good chance to look at stroke rate results. <br /><br /><a href='http://www.concept2.co.uk/birc/results.php' target='_blank'>http://www.concept2.co.uk/birc/results.php</a><br /><br />Unlike the HWs, you do see a few LWs in the top 15 taking a high SR approach (past 36 spm for a great deal of the race). Specifically, Nick English and Rasmus Quist, both very experienced oarsman and indoor racing enthusiasts.

[[old] Carl Henrik]

<!--QuoteBegin-row4lyfe+Dec 14 2005, 11:33 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(row4lyfe @ Dec 14 2005, 11:33 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->hello! i had a question: should lightweight rowers have a higher stroke rating (for example, for a 2k) than heavyweight rowers? <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />No!<br /><br />At least that's one way to put it. If you are trying to decide what rate you or any other rower should have then it is not optimal to compare to other rowers in the first place. If you are in the erg on in a single you should only base the choice on your own performance. You should not look at someone heavier or lighter and determine your stroke rate from that. <br /><br />Secondly, weight is very low priority for determining stroke rate and you should not even consider it probably. You should look at how much power you can deliver efficiently in a stroke and how much aerobic energy you have available. This should determine rating. <br /><br />Another question is wether lightweights tend to have a higher stroke rate than heavy weights.

[[old] John Rupp]

Hwt world record: 37 spm<br /><br />Lightweight World Record: 41.3 spm

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Dec 15 2005, 09:10 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Dec 15 2005, 09:10 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Hwt world record:  37 spm<br /><br />Lightweight World Record:  41.3 spm <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Where did you get these figures? I think I've seen something regarding the LM, but not the HM stroke rate.<br />

[[old] John Rupp]

In an interview with Matthias Siejkowski, he said it was 37 spm.<br /><br />In this interview, he says "My stroke rate after settling down was around 36, and I could see 500m splits of 1:25".<br /><br /><a href='http://www.row2k.com/features/features. ... =read&ID=5' target='_blank'>http://www.row2k.com/features/features. ... ad&ID=5</a>

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Dec 15 2005, 10:01 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Dec 15 2005, 10:01 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In an interview with Matthias Siejkowski, he said it was 37 spm.<br /><br />In this interview, he says "My stroke rate after settling down was around 36, and I could see 500m splits of 1:25".<br /><br /><a href='http://www.row2k.com/features/features. ... =read&ID=5' target='_blank'>http://www.row2k.com/features/features. ... ad&ID=5</a> <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I'm familiar with that article, I just didn't realize that 36 = 37. Thanks.<br /><br />But we still have the amazing feat of Graham Benton of being protty close to an average of 29 for a fairly speedy performance. I suspect he can also bring the rate up, since he did so forthe team 100K challenge. It's going to be something to see.

[[old] John Rupp]

Eskild's rate after settling down was 38/39 and he averaged 41.3.<br /><br />Does that mean he averaged 38? No. He averaged 41.3 strokes per minute. <br /><br />Likewise MS with 36 after settling down + 3.3 would be 39 strokes per minute.<br /><br />However I'm pretty sure I saw in another interview of him saying he averaged 37 spm for the distance.<br /><br />Benton keeps getting slower with the rating.<br /><br />I doubt that he will reverse the trend, nor get much faster than he's done.

[[old] NavigationHazard]

<!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Benton keeps getting slower with the rating. </td></tr></table><br /><br />I <i>hope</i> you mean by this that he keeps slowing down the rating, not that he's actually rowing slower.<br /><br />His 5:46 and change in winning this year's Open event at the BIRCs was his PB at the distance.<br /><br />Based on what I know about his training, he's far from done improving. He's also working very hard at getting better on the water; no doubt the search for technical efficiency is one of the things driving those low-rate sessions on the erg.

[[old] PaulS]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Dec 15 2005, 11:15 AM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Dec 15 2005, 11:15 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Eskild's rate after settling down was 38/39 and he averaged 41.3.<br /><br />Does that mean he averaged 38?  No.  He averaged 41.3 strokes per minute.  <br /><br />Likewise MS with 36 after settling down + 3.3 would be 39 strokes per minute.<br /><br />However I'm pretty sure I saw in another interview of him saying he averaged 37 spm for the distance. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />So do you really consider the "Average SR" to be the relevant number? Being the statistical expert you are, surely you would be more likely to consider the true indicator to be the "mode SR", as that is what is really being done. The "average SR" may not reflect even a single strokes performance, it's likely there would be a few strokes at the average, but that would depend quite a bit on the max SR, which in the case of EE is very high indeed.<br /><br />Basically, the lwt and hwt were pretty close to the same SR for the majority of their strokes, the hwt just covers a bit more distance per stroke.<br /><br />There is a couple benefits to the hwt approach, since they row at a bit lower rate and finish more quickly they have less total strokes so can put that much more into each stroke.<br /><br />If Graham is slowing his rate and going faster, why are you not arguing that he will one day be at SR=10 going faster than ever? It would follow your usual logic.

[[old] Ray79]

Just to get back on topic here, Im a very tall lightweight and I dont tend to rate very highly (but then again im not very fast ). <br />2 Km I would rate at 28, and my 5km, 6km, and 10km pbs recently have been done at r25-26.<br />I dont really know why, but if i rate too highly over longer distances I tend to tire much more quickly. Must be just that my stroke efficiency is better at low rates. Would anyone else agree that this could be to do with the length of my recovery due to being so tall or is it really just a personal thing?

[[old] John Rupp]

<!--QuoteBegin-PaulS+Dec 15 2005, 12:44 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Dec 15 2005, 12:44 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So do you really consider the "Average SR" to be the relevant number?  </td></tr></table><br />Yes, as this is based on the total strokes taken for the distance.<br /><br /><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Basically, the lwt and hwt were pretty close to the same SR for the majority of their strokes, the hwt just covers a bit more distance per stroke. </td></tr></table><br />Right, as the hwt being taller, has a longer stroke length.<br /><br /><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If Graham is slowing his rate and going faster, why are you not arguing that he will one day be at SR=10 going faster than ever?  </td></tr></table><br />Because there is an optimum stroke length for every rower, and he is already pulling the handle up to his nose.<br /><br />In lieu of raising the rating, GB has not much more room for improvement.<br /><br />He is most certainly not going to row a 5:37 at 29 spm.<br /><br /><!--QuoteBegin--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It would follow your usual logic. </td></tr></table><br />I have never suggested to race at low ratings, so you are mistaken about that.<br />

[[old] Ray79]

<!--QuoteBegin-John Rupp+Dec 15 2005, 04:07 PM--><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Dec 15 2005, 04:07 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Because there is an optimum stroke length for every rower, and he is already pulling the handle up to his nose.<br /> </td></tr></table><br />Has anyone else see this? I have seen a video of Graham at BIRC in 2004 (when he did a 5:55) and he didnt seem to be pulling it up to his nose as you say. He has a long stroke, and uses a good lean back to lengthen but it is not as extreme as you describe.<br /><br />As for times, 5:55 13 months ago, 5:46 1 month ago, 11 months time.........BIRC 2006 ?:?? who knows if improvements continue on this level. I do think that 2 or 3 pips higher on the rate could do it.