Training With A Higher Or Lower Drag Factor?

[old] jbell · Post by **[old] jbell** » February 3rd, 2006, 12:32 am

Ok, this question has been bothering me for a while. When you do a piece (10k, 60min, etc) should the drag factor be higher or lower than your drag factor for a 2k? I usually just leave the damper at 4 which gives a drag factor of ~115. My 2k drag factor is 125. Yesterday I did an hour at my 2k drag factor and it didn’t feel much harder than at a lower drag factor. What do you guys do as far as drag factor?

[old] ninthman · Post by **[old] ninthman** » February 3rd, 2006, 2:32 am

I tend to keep the damper at 1 almost all the time. I do mostly hour pieces or longer in the low 20s.<br /><br />When I last did CRASHB in 2005, I had it between 2 and 3, with a drag factor of 88-90 or so, and a stroke rate of 34-35.

[old] Ray79 · Post by **[old] Ray79** » February 3rd, 2006, 5:14 am

I use the same drag foctor for everything and have done since I started rowing. 135.<br />Any higher feels odd, too heavy, and I tire too quickly, and feel like im heaving the handle rather than putting any pressure build on it.<br />Occasionally I warm up at a slightly lower drag factor, but just to get the blood pumping in the muscles.

[old] jbell · Post by **[old] jbell** » February 4th, 2006, 1:35 am

Thanks for your posts guys. I remember last summer I use to do 10min with the damper @10 and my drag factor was like 160 or something. My lower back killed afterwards, but my back never hurts when I'm doing a peice with a damper @ like 5. So, should I leave it a 4 and just raise it for my 2k/6k races, or keep it at my 2k/6k drag factor?

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » February 4th, 2006, 1:50 am

You can use any drag factor for any distance.<br /><br />You can also modulate the feel and speed of the resistance to your pace.<br /><br />For example if you use a drag factor of 120 at 1:45 pace, then use a drag factor of 105 at a pace of 2:00 per 500 meters.<br /><br />120 x 1:45 / 2:00 = 105

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » February 4th, 2006, 6:36 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Feb 3 2006, 09:50 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>You can use any drag factor for any distance.<br /><br />You can also modulate the feel and speed of the resistance to your pace.<br /><br />For example if you use a drag factor of 120 at 1:45 pace, then use a drag factor of 105 at a pace of 2:00 per 500 meters.<br /><br />120 x 1:45 / 2:00 = 105 <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />Is there any reasoning at all, behind this? It appears that you are suggesting that a 2:00 @ DF = 105 and 1:45 @ DF = 120 would have a similar feel? That's laughable on it's own, but why did you not specify the stroke rates, as long as you were "doing the math"?<br /><br />

[old] FrancoisA · Post by **[old] FrancoisA** » February 4th, 2006, 12:18 pm

Paul,<br /><br />When doing the L4 workouts, the spi stays almost the same, whether one is at 16 or 26 spm.<br />But at the catch, the feeling is quite different since at 16 spm the flywheel has more time to decelerate than at 26 spm. Assuming that the drive stays pretty much constant and that it is the recovery that is shortened, is there a formula to adjust the DF so that the flywheel would end up at the same speed in both cases? <br /><br />If there is no mathematical formula that you know of, would the ErgMonitor be of any help in finding an approximation ?<br /><br />Thanks!

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » February 4th, 2006, 6:09 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(FrancoisA @ Feb 4 2006, 08:18 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Paul,<br /><br />When doing the L4 workouts, the spi stays almost the same, whether one is at 16 or 26 spm.<br />But at the catch, the feeling is quite different since at 16 spm the flywheel has more time to decelerate than at 26 spm. Assuming that the drive stays pretty much constant and that it is the recovery that is shortened, is there a formula to adjust the DF so that the flywheel would end up at the same speed in both cases? <br /><br />If there is no mathematical formula that you know of, would the ErgMonitor be of any help in finding an approximation ?<br /><br />Thanks! <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />It would have to be done on a try and see basis, but yes, ErgMonitor will tell you the RPM's of the Flywheel and you could do one pace/rate and then do the other and have a helper adjust the Damper so that both began at similar RPM's at the catch, if that was something you wanted to do. <br /><br />Of course I think it's better to stick with a particular DF 105-120 (depending on athlete size), and stick to S10PS while using pace targets to accomplish the desired training effect.

[old] lintonwilson · Post by **[old] lintonwilson** » February 4th, 2006, 9:12 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Feb 4 2006, 05:09 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(FrancoisA @ Feb 4 2006, 08:18 AM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Paul,<br /><br />When doing the L4 workouts, the spi stays almost the same, whether one is at 16 or 26 spm.<br />But at the catch, the feeling is quite different since at 16 spm the flywheel has more time to decelerate than at 26 spm. Assuming that the drive stays pretty much constant and that it is the recovery that is shortened, is there a formula to adjust the DF so that the flywheel would end up at the same speed in both cases? <br /><br />If there is no mathematical formula that you know of, would the ErgMonitor be of any help in finding an approximation ?<br /><br />Thanks! <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />It would have to be done on a try and see basis, but yes, ErgMonitor will tell you the RPM's of the Flywheel and you could do one pace/rate and then do the other and have a helper adjust the Damper so that both began at similar RPM's at the catch, if that was something you wanted to do. <br /><br />Of course I think it's better to stick with a particular DF 105-120 (depending on athlete size), and stick to S10PS while using pace targets to accomplish the desired training effect. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br />paul, what is the specific guidance for df re the rowers size?<br /><br />thanks,<br />dan

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » February 4th, 2006, 9:47 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Feb 4 2006, 02:09 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>It would have to be done on a try and see basis<br /><br />you could do one pace/rate and then do the other <br /><br />and have a helper adjust the Damper </td></tr></table><br /><br />Amazing conclusions. <br /><br /><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Of course I think </td></tr></table><br />Is there any reasoning at all, behind this? It appears that you are suggesting that you think. That is laughable on it's own! <br /><br /><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>it's better to stick with a particular DF 105-120 </td></tr></table><br />After you said it is wrong, now you make the same suggestion that I did.<br /><br />Make up your mind. <br /><br /><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>depending on athlete size </td></tr></table><br />Yes, the PATT percentages. <br /><br /><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>and stick to S10PS while using pace targets to accomplish the desired training effect </td></tr></table><br />What, getting slower? Is that your coaching objective.

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » February 4th, 2006, 9:52 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(lintonwilson @ Feb 4 2006, 05:12 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Feb 4 2006, 05:09 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><br />Of course I think it's better to stick with a particular DF 105-120 (depending on athlete size), and stick to S10PS while using pace targets to accomplish the desired training effect. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />paul, what is the specific guidance for df re the rowers size?<br /><br />thanks,<br />dan <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I'm not sure I'd call it "specific", but my general guidelines would go something like this: (These could be based on present qualities or desired qualities to be trained.)<br />1) Guys lower, gals higher<br />2) Taller lower, shorter higher<br />3) Quicker lower, slower higher<br />4) Stronger lower, weaker higher<br />5) Older lower, younger higher<br />6) Rowers lower, Ergers higher<br />

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » February 4th, 2006, 10:00 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(John Rupp @ Feb 4 2006, 05:47 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Feb 4 2006, 02:09 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>It would have to be done on a try and see basis<br /><br />you could do one pace/rate and then do the other <br /><br />and have a helper adjust the Damper </td></tr></table><br /><br />Amazing conclusions. <br /><br /><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Of course I think </td></tr></table><br />Is there any reasoning at all, behind this? It appears that you are suggesting that you think. That is laughable on it's own! <br /><br /><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>it's better to stick with a particular DF 105-120 </td></tr></table><br />After you said it is wrong, now you make the same suggestion that I did.<br /><br />Make up your mind. <br /><br /><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>depending on athlete size </td></tr></table><br />Yes, the PATT percentages. <br /><br /><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>and stick to S10PS while using pace targets to accomplish the desired training effect </td></tr></table><br />What, getting slower? Is that your coaching objective. <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br /><br />Hey Johnny boy, go rupp yourself. You have no idea what you are talking about (as usual), and recyling my question to you is plainly idiotic, can you answer the question or not?<br /><br />I've made specific recommendations, not some meaningless Drag factor * Pace BS.<br /><br />I'm not suggesting changing DF's you moron, but sticking with a single DF within a range.<br /><br />I'm not sure what a "pratt" is, but it sounds a lot like something you might be.<br /><br />Cheers.

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » February 4th, 2006, 10:12 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(PaulS @ Feb 4 2006, 06:00 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>I've made specific recommendations, not some meaningless Drag factor * Pace BS. </td></tr></table><br /><br />Oh well it looked like BS to me.<br /><br />When are you going to post the specific recommendations then?

[old] jbell · Post by **[old] jbell** » February 4th, 2006, 11:47 pm

Alright, lets keep this civil. I've got a different advices (at least that caught my eye):<br />1) Just leave the damper alone<br />2) Something to do with the stroke power index (but I dont know how to figure that out)<br />What do the majority of you guys do? <br />

[old] michaelb · Post by **[old] michaelb** » February 5th, 2006, 12:08 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'><b>QUOTE(jbell @ Feb 4 2006, 10:47 PM)</b></div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Alright, lets keep this civil. I've got a different advices (at least that caught my eye):<br />1) Just leave the damper alone<br />2) Something to do with the stroke power index (but I dont know how to figure that out)<br />What do the majority of you guys do? <br /> </td></tr></table><br /><br />I guess the rest of should be more clear. As far as I can tell, no one takes John Rupp's advice on this forum; many of us rely on and depend on PaulS's coaching and insight. So I don't think you are getting "different advices".<br /><br />I keep the damper/drag the same for everything. It used to be in the 130 range, and I did that for years. PaulS recommended that I go down to 110, and so that is what I have been doing for the last several months. Actually, I don't notice that big a difference.<br />