World Records In 6k Race

[old] Physicist · Post by **[old] Physicist** » January 26th, 2005, 6:08 am

I'm not about to defend the logical consistency of two statements, neither of which I made.... If you reread my posts I hope you'll find that I didn't say the times recorded at the event were not a world record. I said that no world record for this distance on the erg has any value. I will say the same for any sporting event in which the vast majority of competitive performances are done outside the sanction of the governing body.

[old] NavigationHazard · Post by **[old] NavigationHazard** » January 26th, 2005, 8:19 am

In January/February 2003, <a href='http://www.thevineyfamily.freeserve.co. ... rofile.htm' target='_blank'>MAD team member Nik Fleming</a> (Big Bird on this forum) pulled a fantastic 15:40 and change for 5k. He came back a week or so later with an equally brilliant 19:11 for 6k. (Way to go, Nik!!!! Whatcha going to do this year? ) I mention this to suggest that top-tier rowers capable of a fast 5k are most likely capable of a fast 6k as well. Re the shorter distance, the great Matthew Pinsent yanked an astounding 15:11 5k in June 2000. As far as Concept 2 is concerned, this would appear to be the fastest 5k ever reported to it and thought credible enough to post in its <a href='http://www.concept2.com/almanac/get_al_records.asp' target='_blank'>All Time Records</a> listings. Had Pinsent continued at the same 1:31/500m pace he would have arrived at 6k in around 18:13. Or to put it another way, he could have limped/paddled through another 1000 meters that day at a (for him) pedestrian 1:45/500m pace and still beaten Haller's recent 18:48.5 by 5 seconds. True, he didn't-- at least then and there.... I don't wish to demean Haller's accomplishment, which is a wonderful time. In fact it obliterates the currently listed Concept 2 "All-Time Record": Nikola Stojic's 18:54.1, pulled in November 1999. But as this thread already has suggested, some twenty-something, world-class rowers clearly have been capable of a lot faster at certain moments in their training cycles. My guess as to why we don't see a 6k 'record' for heavyweight men around 18:20 or so is that the national coaches and athletes who test at that distance are coy. Basically they don't want to reveal true fitness levels to their upcoming competition. Offer 50,000 Euros/USD to someone who pulls a 'mere' 18:30* in public, say at the upcoming Crash Bs, and I suspect you'd be out the money within a month.... *1:32.5/500m pace

[old] Sirrowsalot · Post by **[old] Sirrowsalot** » February 28th, 2005, 4:33 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(Ralph Earle @ Jan 26 2005, 03:28 AM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> Statement #2: "Although done in a Concept2-sanctioned event, Akos Haller's 6K erg time of 18:48.5 is NOT a world record for the event, because someone claims to have witnessed two anonymous individuals go faster in 1996 in a team trial." Statement #3: "Any Concept2-sanctioned race result is eligible for world-record designation, unless someone claims to have seen a faster time -- or is pretty sure s/he would see a faster time somewhere ... sometime ... , if only Famous So-and-So would just attempt it ... . (Can anybody help me here? Surely somebody must have gone faster than this, haven't they? Or if they haven't, they could, if they wanted to, right?)" </td></tr></table> You do yourself a disservice in exaggerating your opponents' argument in this way, and you've gotten in trouble on this forum in the past for claiming world record status for rather ordinary times (I seem to recall you once claiming that the Open Lightweight Men's 500 record was a 1:29) In any case, it's not that someone is merely alleging that they have seen someone go faster for this distance, national team rowers from around the world do it all the time, as do elite university rowers. Call it a world record if you want, if that makes you feel better, but I think it would be more accurate to say "pretty good time that's been endowed with world record status though it's widely known that most elite rowers have done and continue to pull times just as good or better."

[old] Sirrowsalot · Post by **[old] Sirrowsalot** » March 1st, 2005, 1:12 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(Ralph Earle @ Jan 26 2005, 03:28 AM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Statement #3: "Any Concept2-sanctioned race result is eligible for world-record designation, unless someone claims to have seen a faster time -- or is pretty sure s/he would see a faster time somewhere ... sometime ... , if only Famous So-and-So would just attempt it ... . (Can anybody help me here? Surely somebody must have gone faster than this, haven't they? Or if they haven't, they could, if they wanted to, right?)" </td></tr></table> Sorry, I just read over Ralph's last statement again and it riled me up, especially in light of Anders' post: "World records, well, Mads Rasmussen did the 6K in 19:29 a few weeks back. (Eskild have done 19:20 and consistently around 19:30). This isn't a PB for Juliane either. By the way, both Mads Rasmussen (in 6:08) and Juliane Elander won the open LWT at the Danish Nationals this Saturday - they then went straight to the airport

Until Concept2 does something more seriously about it we will not really know what the world records are for anything else than 2K. Cheers, Anders" Are you denying that Anders knows what he is talking about, or has fabricated these events? I think you have some major explaining to do.

[old] Ralph Earle · Post by **[old] Ralph Earle** » March 2nd, 2005, 11:43 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(Sirrowsalot @ Mar 1 2005, 05:12 AM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(Ralph Earle @ Jan 26 2005, 03:28 AM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Statement #3: "Any Concept2-sanctioned race result is eligible for world-record designation, unless someone claims to have seen a faster time -- or is pretty sure s/he would see a faster time somewhere ... sometime ... , if only Famous So-and-So would just attempt it ... . (Can anybody help me here? Surely somebody must have gone faster than this, haven't they? Or if they haven't, they could, if they wanted to, right?)" </td></tr></table> Sorry, I just read over Ralph's last statement again and it riled me up, especially in light of Anders' post: "World records, well, Mads Rasmussen did the 6K in 19:29 a few weeks back. (Eskild have done 19:20 and consistently around 19:30). This isn't a PB for Juliane either. By the way, both Mads Rasmussen (in 6:08) and Juliane Elander won the open LWT at the Danish Nationals this Saturday - they then went straight to the airport

Until Concept2 does something more seriously about it we will not really know what the world records are for anything else than 2K. Cheers, Anders" Are you denying that Anders knows what he is talking about, or has fabricated these events? I think you have some major explaining to do. </td></tr></table> The explanation for my position is straight-forward. Except in the oldest age groups, Concept2 recognizes as world records for 2K only times achieved in open competitions. I see no reason why the same standard should not apply to any other distance. As a case in point, Concept2 UK recognizes Josh West's 4:41.7 as the British record for the mile (1609m). That's a pace of @1:27.5. They also recognize Matthew Pinsent's 5:42.3 as the British record for the 2K. That's a pace of @1:25.6. Unless Pinsent erged the last 391m of his record 2K at a pace of @1:17.2, he most certainly passed the 1609m mark under 4:41.7. Nonetheless, C2 UK recognizes West's mile time as the British record. Clearly, Concept2 UK has extended to other distances the requirement that a record must be set in an open competition, as have Concept2 NZ (100m, 300m 500m, 1K, HM, M, 100K) and Concept2 AUS (500m). Now, would you care to explain why a training result should be eligible for recognition as a world record in indoor rowing, but not in any other sport?

[old] Canoeist · Post by **[old] Canoeist** » March 3rd, 2005, 12:31 am

"Now, would you care to explain why a training result should be eligible for recognition as a world record in indoor rowing, but not in any other sport?" Is it because non-2K races are only available in NZ and in the On-line racing community? Paul Flack

[old] chickenlegs · Post by **[old] chickenlegs** » March 3rd, 2005, 4:00 am

As a case in point, Concept2 UK recognizes Josh West's 4:41.7 as the British record for the mile (1609m). That's a pace of @1:27.5. They also recognize Matthew Pinsent's 5:42.3 as the British record for the 2K. That's a pace of @1:25.6. Unless Pinsent erged the last 391m of his record 2K at a pace of @1:17.2, he most certainly passed the 1609m mark under 4:41.7. Nonetheless, C2 UK recognizes West's mile time as the British record. Clearly, Concept2 UK has extended to other distances the requirement that a record must be set in an open competition, as have Concept2 NZ (100m, 300m 500m, 1K, HM, M, 100K) and Concept2 AUS (500m). Now, would you care to explain why a training result should be eligible for recognition as a world record in indoor rowing, but not in any other sport? [/quote] why? most people in the world don't even know about erging. most of the ones that do (small fraction of total), don't care about it. the very small number of people around the world that do use the erg, train hard on it and periodically meet to go as hard as they can on it, do it always on the same distance: 2000 m. other distances are raced too here and there, but 2000 m is the only universal one (as universal as erging can be considered 1609 meters??? what about 1610 m? or any other possible integer number between 0 and 2000 m? i know 1609 m is an approximated mile in meters, but i am quite certain that most rowers have never even punched in that distance on a concept 2 monitor. elia luini probably never has erged 1609 m. he probably doesn't even know the exact number of meters in a mile. as you pointed out, when pinsent rowed his record, he passed 1609 m mark in a better time than west's time. west's time is a record as good as my world record of keping a 1:20 average split for a 147 m race: there are no faster times on the particular distance posted anywhere...but how many of the world's fastest ergers have raced the distance?? if it makes one feel better to claim a world record of this type...go ahead and do what makes you feel happy. ...but to expect everybody else to take it seriously...

[old] Ralph Earle · Post by **[old] Ralph Earle** » March 3rd, 2005, 4:39 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(Canoeist @ Mar 3 2005, 04:31 AM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>"Now, would you care to explain why a training result should be eligible for recognition as a world record in indoor rowing, but not in any other sport?" Is it because non-2K races are only available in NZ and in the On-line racing community? Paul Flack </td></tr></table> Aloha, Paul Open competitions at distances other than 2K have been held in the following countries: 500m: AUS, DK, IT, NZ, UK, USA 1K: AUS, NZ, UK, SWE 5K: NZ, UK 6K: NDR 30min: DK 10K: NZ 60min: NZ HM: NOR, NZ M: NOR, NZ 100K: NZ Suppose in 2006 Concept2 USA sponsors 500m and 1K races the day before CRASH-B. Will that automatically make other nation's past results eligible for WR status? If not, why not? If so, isn't that chauvinistic? In the same vein, the UK can reasonably claim parity with the US regarding world-class ergers. If Concept2 UK expands its Grand Prix series to include 500m , 1K , mile and 5K every year, will times at those competitions still not be eligible for WR status? Why? Or is it simply the case that no world records can exist in a sporting event if citizens of the United States rarely compete? - Ralph

[old] Canoeist · Post by **[old] Canoeist** » March 3rd, 2005, 12:18 pm

NZ is certainly the leader in having several distances to race. The US, permanent home of the World Championships and origin of "the machine", is poorly represented on your list. The US is well represented in the On-line races. These races occur at all of the ranking distances. Now, all we need is Concept to sponsor a few of these races and they can be included for world record status? Cheers, Paul Flack

[old] Sirrowsalot · Post by **[old] Sirrowsalot** » March 3rd, 2005, 3:24 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(Ralph Earle @ Mar 2 2005, 10:43 PM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(Sirrowsalot @ Mar 1 2005, 05:12 AM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(Ralph Earle @ Jan 26 2005, 03:28 AM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>Statement #3: "Any Concept2-sanctioned race result is eligible for world-record designation, unless someone claims to have seen a faster time -- or is pretty sure s/he would see a faster time somewhere ... sometime ... , if only Famous So-and-So would just attempt it ... . (Can anybody help me here? Surely somebody must have gone faster than this, haven't they? Or if they haven't, they could, if they wanted to, right?)" </td></tr></table> Sorry, I just read over Ralph's last statement again and it riled me up, especially in light of Anders' post: "World records, well, Mads Rasmussen did the 6K in 19:29 a few weeks back. (Eskild have done 19:20 and consistently around 19:30). This isn't a PB for Juliane either. By the way, both Mads Rasmussen (in 6:08) and Juliane Elander won the open LWT at the Danish Nationals this Saturday - they then went straight to the airport

Until Concept2 does something more seriously about it we will not really know what the world records are for anything else than 2K. Cheers, Anders" Are you denying that Anders knows what he is talking about, or has fabricated these events? I think you have some major explaining to do. </td></tr></table> The explanation for my position is straight-forward. Except in the oldest age groups, Concept2 recognizes as world records for 2K only times achieved in open competitions. I see no reason why the same standard should not apply to any other distance. As a case in point, Concept2 UK recognizes Josh West's 4:41.7 as the British record for the mile (1609m). That's a pace of @1:27.5. They also recognize Matthew Pinsent's 5:42.3 as the British record for the 2K. That's a pace of @1:25.6. Unless Pinsent erged the last 391m of his record 2K at a pace of @1:17.2, he most certainly passed the 1609m mark under 4:41.7. Nonetheless, C2 UK recognizes West's mile time as the British record. Clearly, Concept2 UK has extended to other distances the requirement that a record must be set in an open competition, as have Concept2 NZ (100m, 300m 500m, 1K, HM, M, 100K) and Concept2 AUS (500m). Now, would you care to explain why a training result should be eligible for recognition as a world record in indoor rowing, but not in any other sport? </td></tr></table> Ralph, I understand your point, of course. There needs to be some official process of ceritfying world records--any old training piece, if not properly witnessed, can't count, i suppose. However, when most people see "world record," they assume that that time is the absolute best in the world and represents the pinnacle of achievement in that sport. The current world records, outside of the 6k, are quite a distance from the pinnacle of achievement--as Anders pointed out, that 6k wasn't even that fellow's personal best. So I think it's useful to add a caveat whenver we speak of world records outside of the 6k. Again, i suggest something like "World Record according to the official rules, but many rowers have gone significantly faster so not the 'world's fastest time' in a strict sense."

[old] Leo Young · Post by **[old] Leo Young** » March 28th, 2005, 2:59 am

The "All Time World Ranking Records" are certainly not the same as the all time world records, as they only show the best online ranking times submitted since 1998/9 (the year online rankings commenced). Only the 2000 metre times are official. A number of these ranking records are much slower than official world records times performed prior to 1999 in official competitions and Concept 2 sanctioned time trials. These "records" are nothing more than a raw search of the online unscreened times submitted by participants (with the exception of the 2000 m records) submitted since 98/99 and include a number of absurd typo or possibly even "joke" entries (e.g. 9 year old girls with the best overall times/ distance).

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