Breaking Seven Minutes

[old] PeterWilkinson · Post by **[old] PeterWilkinson** » June 29th, 2005, 6:30 am

I need advice. In comparing my ranking entries from last season to this season, I am very happy with the progress I have made at most distances. My best 1K time has improved by 8.3 seconds, my 5K by 23.3 seconds, and my 10K by 1:04.9. My fitness has definitely improved since I started rowing in April 2004 when my first 2K time was 7:50. In February 2005, my first ever 10K took 45:45.6 and it was a real struggle just to finish it. My current PB is 38:38.3 and I recently completed a half marathon in 1:23:34.8. My best 500m time is 1:29.6 and my 1K is 3:18.9, which both indicate that I should be able to row a sub-7 2K. So why am I struggling with my 2K, which has reduced from 7:09.6, set last year at the BIRC, to 7:04.7 this month. This is only an improvement of 4.9 seconds and does not seem to fit in with the other improvements I have made. I am currently rowing 500m intervals twice a week in order to improve my chances. I can comfortably maintain 1:42.8 pace for 5 sets, with 2 minute rests and the last set is usually rowed at sub 1:42 pace with a 1:42.6 average across the five sets. I also row longer distances, (5K up to one hour), once a week to improve my aerobic capacity and technique. On a timed 2K row, I generally coast through the first 500m at about 1:43.5-1:44.0, then I slow down in the second 500m aiming for a 1:45 pace, but then often blow up or slow down dramatically in the third 500m. At 1500m, my 500m average is usually over 1:46 and can be as high as 1:50. I wonder if the problem may be more mental than physical, and any advice or pointers would be gratefully appreciated.

[old] R S T · Post by **[old] R S T** » June 29th, 2005, 8:00 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(PeterWilkinson @ Jun 29 2005, 10:30 AM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> On a timed 2K row, I generally coast through the first 500m at about 1:43.5-1:44.0, then I slow down in the second 500m aiming for a 1:45 pace, but then often blow up or slow down dramatically in the third 500m. At 1500m, my 500m average is usually over 1:46 and can be as high as 1:50. I wonder if the problem may be more mental than physical, and any advice or pointers would be gratefully appreciated. </td></tr></table> Hi Peter Why go so fast for your initial 500m splits? Try and restrict the first 500m to 1:44.5 or even just 1:45.0 - you will see a HUGE difference in the amount left in the tank for your last 50 strokes/500m. Try and maintain a straight pace profile as much as possible. Like me you might wish to take advantage of that early adrenaline - but do try and control the urge to blast off, perhaps try a search for "French Protocol" for more info on 2k split techniques. You can find it here or on the UK site. I would change your interval training to 8 sets - its tough, but you will obtain more training benefit. If you cannot manage the 6th, 7th and 8th intervals at your normal pace achieved for 5 sets, then bring the overall average down a bit. Experiment. The gains will come. Also - I think you are right - it IS a mental thing. Do your next 2k test when you are feeling confident, and after a period of good solid training. Loads of advice on here will hopefully follow with more precise recommendations, which split for you 8X500 etc. Best of luck and keep us informed of your progress. RichardT

[old] Carl Henrik · Post by **[old] Carl Henrik** » June 29th, 2005, 8:38 am

Peter, Congratulations on the great improvements! The wattage you put into the flywheel has improved by 34%, this is a huge improvement. That your progress slows down after that is very natural. Many never improve as much as you have. Still a sub 7 2k is not unplausable for you. Keep working at it and you may achieve it, but don't expect it to come by easy.

[old] holm188 · Post by **[old] holm188** » June 29th, 2005, 8:46 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(PeterWilkinson @ Jun 29 2005, 05:30 PM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>I need advice. In comparing my ranking entries from last season to this season, I am very happy with the progress I have made at most distances. My best 1K time has improved by 8.3 seconds, my 5K by 23.3 seconds, and my 10K by 1:04.9. My fitness has definitely improved since I started rowing in April 2004 when my first 2K time was 7:50. In February 2005, my first ever 10K took 45:45.6 and it was a real struggle just to finish it. My current PB is 38:38.3 and I recently completed a half marathon in 1:23:34.8. My best 500m time is 1:29.6 and my 1K is 3:18.9, which both indicate that I should be able to row a sub-7 2K. So why am I struggling with my 2K, which has reduced from 7:09.6, set last year at the BIRC, to 7:04.7 this month. This is only an improvement of 4.9 seconds and does not seem to fit in with the other improvements I have made. I am currently rowing 500m intervals twice a week in order to improve my chances. I can comfortably maintain 1:42.8 pace for 5 sets, with 2 minute rests and the last set is usually rowed at sub 1:42 pace with a 1:42.6 average across the five sets. I also row longer distances, (5K up to one hour), once a week to improve my aerobic capacity and technique. On a timed 2K row, I generally coast through the first 500m at about 1:43.5-1:44.0, then I slow down in the second 500m aiming for a 1:45 pace, but then often blow up or slow down dramatically in the third 500m. At 1500m, my 500m average is usually over 1:46 and can be as high as 1:50. I wonder if the problem may be more mental than physical, and any advice or pointers would be gratefully appreciated. </td></tr></table> Hi Peter, with your 500, 1k and 5k times you are right that you should be able to go sub 7 min on a 2k. I have very similar 1k and 5k times (and a slower 500), my 2k is 6:57. So I think you could do 6:55 or a little faster. As recommended by RST try to start slower, try for example to do the first 500 at average 1:46, then keep this until 1000m, then start accelerating. This is not the best strategy to get the fastest over 2k, but it might help to break the 7minutes, then you can work on getting lower by pushing the first 1k a little faster (about average of your previous 2k). With time you can begin starting faster again. Also watch out not to drop your SR on the 3rd (and 4th) 500m. As work out you can also try 4x1000 at 1:44 to 1:45 (5min rest). Hope that helps, Holm (39y, 188cm, 86kg, 500:1:32, 1k:3:18, 2k:6:57, 5k:18:48, 6k:22:37, HM1:24:33)

[old] Cran · Post by **[old] Cran** » June 29th, 2005, 9:43 am

Apart from the first 8 strokes Row the first 1800m at 1:46 then sprint the last 200m.

[old] michaelb · Post by **[old] michaelb** » June 29th, 2005, 9:43 am

I agree that your other times indicate that you should be able to go sub 7, so you should have confidence that you can get there. You are slightly faster than me, particularly at the sprints, and I was thinking that I am getting close too (I am going to wait until next fall or winter to try though). The 500m and 1000m times show you have plenty of speed, so if anything, you need to keep working on endurance. You describe the 5k as a longer piece, but I think of it as short, certainly a 5k alone is not going to build much endurance. So while you probably could get there right now taking the advice of others on race pacing, if you want to step back, I would do less speed work for a while, and focus on hard 10ks and other longer distances (as well as some easy 10k and longer pieces) to improve your overall capacity. Can you row a sub40 10k easily in practice? If not, I would work till you can get to there, if so, obviously push them harder or row 15k hours for example. Good luck (get online with rowpro, and race with others like me, and you would get there for sure).

[old] jamesg · Post by **[old] jamesg** » June 29th, 2005, 9:53 am

PW Your problem is endurance, and you can see this by looking at the differentials between your ½, 1 and 2k times. If you have endurance, your 2k pace will be about 11% slower than your ½k. Also 2k is a very nasty distance, Olympic in fact, no one in his right mind ever does it. For a ½ or 1k or a 5 or 10k even I just jump on and go. Not 2k. Maybe it's mental, but if we think there can be mental problems, then we have one. You can't go wrong by presuming all problems are physical only. So if you want to do a really good one (and you can, 6:40 will not be impossible) I'd suggest you follow the Interactive, for at least 20 weeks. That means plenty of endurance work, and lots of concentration on technique, which includes controlling length, ratio, force, rating, drag, smoothness, relaxation, working out a race protocol, whatever. Pulling lots of long hard strokes at the rating prescribed; every stroke has to move the boat. Sharpening up then comes along when we have a sword to sharpen and something to kill.

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » June 29th, 2005, 10:24 am

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(PeterWilkinson @ Jun 29 2005, 03:30 AM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'>I am currently rowing 500m intervals twice a week in order to improve my chances. I can comfortably maintain 1:42.8 pace for 5 sets, with 2 minute rests and the last set is usually rowed at sub 1:42 pace with a 1:42.6 average across the five sets. </td></tr></table> The 500m reps are too easy. Try doing 7x 2.5 minutes, with 2.5 minute rests in between.

[old] John Rupp · Post by **[old] John Rupp** » June 29th, 2005, 10:26 am

Also, improve your 5k time. You've got the 500m speed to better 6:40 for a 2k. Improving your endurance will help you to accomplish it.

[old] PeterWilkinson · Post by **[old] PeterWilkinson** » June 29th, 2005, 11:00 am

Thanks a lot guys. You have restored my faith, and you have certainly given me plenty to think about. After my initial post, I went to the gym, and improved my 60 minute row PB from 15,204 to 15,340. When I got back, I have all this great advice and support, it is much appreciated. Richard, I have read the French protocol, but I believe that is part of my problem. The variations between the first and last 500m splits, versus the middle two splits is just too wide. I think that your straight pace profile, with a more gentle start makes sense and is the way to go. 8 X 500m sets will be tough, but I will give it a try. Carl, I don't measure my rowing by wattage, as I tend to work against the 500m average of my previous best. I hadn't actually realised that I had made such big gains, and I will keep working on the sub-7 2K. Holm, Your advice may get me through in under 7 minutes, and I will try the 4 X 1000m intervals. Does it really need a 5 min rest? I would generally only rest 2 minutes between intervals. Andy, More advice to row a steady pace, but only to sprint the last 200m? I will give your method a try when I have a few weeks of my new interval training under my belt. Michael, My 10K PB is currently 38:38.3 and I believe that I could go consistently under 40 minutes without too much difficulty, and as stated above, I rowed 15,340m in an hour earlier today. It is interesting that of my Ranked Entries, the four distances/timed rows which are above 20% are 6K, 10K, 30 minutes and 60 minutes. My half-marathon time just dips under my 20% target at 19%. I will be doing more work on these longer distances to get my ranking percentages down anyway, and this may well help with the 2K. James, I like your attitude. You're right, 2K is a very nasty distance. Too long for a sprint, but too short for a long steady row. In terms of technique, I do half of my 5-10 minute warmups/warmdowns without straps, when I tend to focus on maintaining a strong smooth stroke, while relaxing as much as possible. I doubt I would get close to 6:40 in the near future, but it would be a nice long-term goal. It would appear that my plan of action for the next couple of months will be to row at least one long row, (6K plus) a week, with two interval sessions per week using 500m and 1000m intervals, increasing the distance from 2.5K to 4K per session. Hopefully this will bring my endurance up to speed, and when I have some good workouts behind me, I will make use of the improved confidence and go for the sub-7 2K, with a steady start and a consistent pace for the first 1500-1800m. I will let you know how it goes. Thanks again for all of your advice and support.

[old] holm188 · Post by **[old] holm188** » June 29th, 2005, 12:50 pm

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><div class='genmed'>QUOTE(PeterWilkinson @ Jun 29 2005, 10:00 PM)</div></td></tr><tr><td class='quote'> Holm, Your advice may get me through in under 7 minutes, and I will try the 4 X 1000m intervals. Does it really need a 5 min rest? I would generally only rest 2 minutes between intervals. </td></tr></table> I took that from the Pete plan (search on the UK Concept 2 forum) which is inspired by the Wolverine plan (also on the C2 website), they both have 5 min rest. The goal is to row at your 2k pace or faster. Another thought: warm up well Depending on the timeframe of your training, I would start with more endurance workouts (even a few weeks of 3 x 6-10k), you can add in intervals the last 2 months. Good luck and keep us update when you go sub-7!!!

[old] PaulS · Post by **[old] PaulS** » June 29th, 2005, 12:55 pm

I only took a quick look at the responses, so if I repeat something, sorry about that. The 10 second drop in avg pace between your 500M and 1k indicates a terrible problem with endurance that needs to be fixed. (ref. "Pauls Law") STM "Stop the Madness" would be a good start to improving that. Forget the short interval stuff, you're plently strong for your goal of sub 7 min, but you need to get the CV fitness up to par with your strength. All the best!

[old] Peter S · Post by **[old] Peter S** » June 29th, 2005, 1:16 pm

Most people here know much more about doing a 2k than I do, but I've found being consistant throughout the peice will allow you to easily break 7. I find that as long as you take long hard strokes, and from the start get to the split you want to pull for the piece and hold it there. As one of the other people said, I dont sprint till the last 200 then I take a power twenty and just kick up the rate as much as I can, it can bring down your split .3 or more depending on how well your sprint is. As far as the mental aspect goes, the middle thousand is by far the hardest part, specially that third 500, i found that i can do the first 500 to a thousand, and whenever i feel even the slightest bit tired, I cut the piece down to 250 meter peices in my head. Thinking the whole time only 20 strokes left and etc... and thinking to myself that hold it here at the current split your at. Also I've always been taught to be conservative for the beginning and if you feel its too fast drop down a second or two on your split and vice versa for if it feels too easy. It sounds like you take "off strokes" like a friend of mine and he said my meter system helped him, but since everyone is unique, you need to find a system that will work for you. Having someone help tell you to keep it down when your split comes up might help. I have also found for people who take "off strokes" that if they feel like taking one to bring their split up for up to 10-15 strokes 1 to 2 seconds instead of taking one stroke at a high split then dropping it back down again because your just exerting energy everytime it comes way up and you bring it back down. This is just my thoughts/systems I've used for 2ks Peter

[old] reynolds352 · Post by **[old] reynolds352** » June 29th, 2005, 1:51 pm

I am also curious - I have seen so many different techniques produce such great results for a 2K race. I've seen guys like Pavel Shermei (sp?) who pound it in the first 500m, hold steady for 1000m, and fall off for the last 500m. I've seen guys who take every single stroke at the same split. I've seen guys go hard the first 500 and last 500, and take it easy on the middle 1000. All of the advice in here is really excellent, and I had previously thought that my HM, 60min, 10k, and so on were adequate for a sub-7 2K. However, it appears that I really need to work on my CV and endurance. What are good goals at these higher distances if I want a sub-7 2K? Thanks all!

[old] michaelb · Post by **[old] michaelb** » June 29th, 2005, 1:53 pm

We are all being supportive, so don't take this the wrong way. I am also trying to go sub7, and so I don't pretend that I have the answers either. But I and others are suggesting that you work on your endurance. Doing a 6k once a week, and then some speed intervals of 500s and 1000s is not working on endurance. In the the forum slang, those intervals are "sharpening" generally done before competition (the wolverine plan, which I haven't read, may have you do hard intervals regularly in addition to endurance work, so go ahead and follow that plan if you want too). Your 15k+ PB is also a good result. But rowing long distances for PBs is also not working on endurance. Do you have a heart rate monitor? You may want to get one of those. Working on endurance is at least in part, working at lower HRs, at "easy" paces, for long stead distances, working on technique and efficiency, so that you can row long distances at a low, efficient HR (called UT2 and UT1 pieces) and still go "fast". When I suggested doing sub40 10ks, I was suggesting getting to the point when you can do them at UT2 (below 70% of of HRR I believe), which means you are sweating but can easily carry on a conversation. I am not there yet, but can row 2:05 at UT2, and can row sub40 10ks at my UT1 pace. I am not at my rowing computer, but from memory those are around the bands suggested by the C2 training program (they set 1:59 or so for your UT2 band if you want to race at 1:45). So I was suggesting skipping any interval work for several months, doing 10ks to an hour sometimes easy and sometimes medium hard, doing 30 min rows and 10ks hard, working on restricted SR pieces (like the dreaded 30min at SR=20), maybe building up to the full M at sub 3 hours. There has been lots of interesting discussion over the past year about how to improve your UT2 efficiency, so you may want to search for some of those past posts, since I don't know if I have even the right answers.

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