Cyclist looking for offseason training

[wec]

Greetings everyone. I am a cyclist who specifies in climbing (1.90m @ 67-69kg). I don't think I am ever going to be putting out the huge watts to get me sub 7, but that really isn't what I am going after. Basically, I am seeking an offseason cardio and leg intensive exercise that will break up the monotony of riding a trainer in the basement for hours at a time. Right before this season started, I dabbled with some erg work, but didn't really know what I was doing. I guess I still don't, and so, I am looking for some tips about training.

About me: I have maybe an hour or two of total erg time in my life. But, I don't think that my form is awful for a n00blet - I do the stroke in proper order of legs, back, arms - but I am sure that it is not nearly as efficient as 99% of the people on this board. Furthermore, I have pterodactyl arms, so my arms aren't really contributing much after about 2 minutes of effort.

Performance - I have done some testing this week and am sitting around 1:37 500m, 3:45 1k, 7:50 2k. Based on these numbers, it looks like I have a relatively better 500m time compared to 2k. Perhaps this is due to form issues or lack of upper body endurance. As far as cycling goes, 5m power is my strong suit. 20m power is tough for me, but something that I am looking to improve this winter.

Goals - While I would love to get my time lower, that isn't the ultimate goal. I just really want to have several months of erg training that will benefit my cycling. That means, no weights other than that which I am doing for cycling, and no other cross training. Basically, I am wondering if I should focus the first several months on just getting use to the stroke and building base with intervals occurring later OR if I should just start doing some intervals now using my cycling fitness as the "base", and hope that form develops organically while doing intervals. OR should I be doing something completely different? As I said earlier, I would really like to do intervals of around 2k at a time minimum to get after that 20 minute power.

Okay, sorry for the length of that post. Any advice would be much appreciated. Also, I have looked at several other posts by noobs, and I haven't found a compendium for first time rowers. Does such a resource exist?

Thanks in advance,

Bill C.

p.s. Does anyone train with a cycling powermeter? My erg power is much, much lower than my cycling power output - is this normal?

[Bob S.]

Performance - I have done some testing this week and am sitting around 1:37 500m, 3:45 1k, 7:50 2k. Based on these numbers, it looks like I have a relatively better 500m time compared to 2k. Perhaps this is due to form issues or lack of upper body endurance. As far as cycling goes, 5m power is my strong suit. 20m power is tough for me, but something that I am looking to improve this winter.
Any advice would be much appreciated.
Bill C.

The 500m is far, far faster than the others. It was at a pace of 1:37, obviously, whereas the 1k pace is 1:52.5, and the 2k pace is 1:57.5
It has been said if you double the distance, your pace will increase by 5 seconds. The 1k/2k data fit that perfectly. But, going in the reverse of the rule, either one of them would predict a 500m pace of 1:47.5, over 10 seconds slower than what you did.

Re technique: It looks simple enough, but even with some of the excellent training videos available, it is difficult for anyone to critique his/her technique. You need an observer who has a lot of experience with erg training. If no one is available that fits that description, get a video made of your erging - taken from the side. Then you can post it on both this and the UK forum and there will be many members who will help you out.

Bob S.

[wec]

Bob,

Thanks for the advice!

1. Do you think that physiologically, an amateur athlete who is a novice on the erg will do better relatively over shorter distances? I had come across the adage of 2x distance +5s in another thread and thought my results were curious. I am glad to see that I am not the only one to think so. I am kind of concerned that my so-so fitness from cycling is letting me "cheat" the 500, but that when the distances increase, my efficiency becomes my limiting factor and begins to drain my performance. This leads me to believe that my form is hurting and that my arms (more of a fast twitch muscle) are burning out too quickly.

2. On to form. To be clear, I don't believe my form to be very good at all. I certainly think that I have much to learn on the form aspect. I guess when I said that my form is good relative to n00blets, I was referring to those people taking over the erg for 2 minutes so they can get out of breath for their crossfit program. Since I am doing these at a gym, it may take some time for me to get a video posted, but that sounds like the best next step. In the meantime, should I just lay off the erg so as not to develop bad habits, or do you think training even with poor form will be beneficial?

Again, thanks for the reply,

Bill C.

[Citroen]

There's a cyclist thread on the UK forum: http://concept2.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=8262

Watch this:



Then read this: http://www.c2forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=38 so you'll understand the funny jargon.

I started rowing as cross training for cycling - I used to be very slow up the hills. My preference is endurance, that's FM (42195m) on the ergo and 50 or 100 mile time trials on the bike. Rowing has improved my CV fitness immensely.

You can't compare cycling watts to ergo watts, there's some muscles used on the bike that aren't used in the same way on the ergo. There's some muscles that simply aren't used on the ergo and vice versa.

My biggest problem with the bike versus the ergo is cadence, most rowing is drive both legs together at 25 stroke/min or slower then rest until you reach the catch for the next stroke. Most cycling should be one leg after the other constantly moving at somewhere between 75 and 100 revs/min. So the cross over between rowing and cycling has to include that mental switch from slow and steady work/pause to much faster continuous work (unless you like pushing a very big gear like Jan Ulrich used to do in the Tour).

[Bob S.]

Bob,

Thanks for the advice!

1. Do you think that physiologically, an amateur athlete who is a novice on the erg will do better relatively over shorter distances? I had come across the adage of 2x distance +5s in another thread and thought my results were curious. I am glad to see that I am not the only one to think so. I am kind of concerned that my so-so fitness from cycling is letting me "cheat" the 500, but that when the distances increase, my efficiency becomes my limiting factor and begins to drain my performance. This leads me to believe that my form is hurting and that my arms (more of a fast twitch muscle) are burning out too quickly.

I would have thought that your endurance would be more of a factor than your strength and that would mean that you would do better, relatively, on the longer distance. The short distances, i.e. 500m and 1k tend to be dominated by those who are quite muscular. Rowers who are more slender are more likely to dominate the long races, 5k and up. The 2k needs a fine balance of muscular strength and endurance. The arms contribute only a small part of the power. If they tire quickly, it is likely that you are using them too early in the drive. Your arms should not begin to bend at the elbows until your legs are straight at the knees. The back swing bridges the the other two movements. Think of this way: You are pushing your body back with your quads, the strongest muscles in the average body, especially in cyclists. If you try to pull that handle during the leg drive, you are forcing the pull with your biceps to compete with those big thigh muscles pushing the other way. The lats do part of the arm pull as well and they are heftier, but rarely as strong as quads. Note that it is just the reverse on the recovery arms out straight, past your knees, before you start to raise those knees.

Re fast twitch: Even at high stroke rates (like over 35spm) the movement is done by slow twitch muscles. Most training is best done at rates of 15-30 strokes per minute, i.e. 2-4 seconds for each complete stroke. Note that at 15spm, the full drive would be taking less than a second and the recovery a bit over three seconds. Even at 30spm, the recovery should take a bit longer than the drive.

2. On to form. To be clear, I don't believe my form to be very good at all. I certainly think that I have much to learn on the form aspect. I guess when I said that my form is good relative to n00blets, I was referring to those people taking over the erg for 2 minutes so they can get out of breath for their crossfit program. Since I am doing these at a gym, it may take some time for me to get a video posted, but that sounds like the best next step. In the meantime, should I just lay off the erg so as not to develop bad habits, or do you think training even with poor form will be beneficial?

Bill C.

The URLs that Citroen suggested are excellent. The training video is one of the best available and the other URL should be printed out and read carefully. When you feel that you are getting the most out of your legs, make sure than you don't shoot your slide (called shooting your bum in the UK).Your shoulders should be going at least as fast as your seat. Otherwise a lot of the power from the quads is wasted.

Bob S.

[jamesg]

I am wondering if I should focus the first several months on just getting use to the stroke and building base with intervals occurring later OR if I should just start doing some intervals now using my cycling fitness as the "base", and hope that form develops organically while doing intervals.

Start with technique; you can't go wrong. As your goal is maintaining fitness, you need to do a lot of work, and this is most easily done if you have a good solid stroke. In particular, you are tall but light, so you can pull a very long stroke at relatively low force. This will need a low drag factor, but will be enough to keep your HR near the AT even at lowish ratings, say 20-24.

A good stroke on the erg is like the one in the video, and indeed you could pull even longer, given your height, not least to compensate for the slack catch on the erg. (The oarsman in the video is not worried about that, it's much quicker to catch up with water than with a spinning flywheel).

Once you have that stroke, 20-30 minutes after warm-up will give you plenty of CV fitness.

Note the warm up procedure shown in the video, which is technical too. Starting with arms only, then swing, then adding legs after the swing, you can go through this exercise with gradually increasing leg travel, until your hands reach the chainguard. You'll see the rating drop and the power increase.

[hjs]

Greetings everyone. I am a cyclist who specifies in climbing (1.90m @ 67-69kg). I don't think I am ever going to be putting out the huge watts to get me sub 7, but that really isn't what I am going after. Basically, I am seeking an offseason cardio and leg intensive exercise that will break up the monotony of riding a trainer in the basement for hours at a time. Right before this season started, I dabbled with some erg work, but didn't really know what I was doing. I guess I still don't, and so, I am looking for some tips about training.

About me: I have maybe an hour or two of total erg time in my life. But, I don't think that my form is awful for a n00blet - I do the stroke in proper order of legs, back, arms - but I am sure that it is not nearly as efficient as 99% of the people on this board. Furthermore, I have pterodactyl arms, so my arms aren't really contributing much after about 2 minutes of effort.

Performance - I have done some testing this week and am sitting around 1:37 500m, 3:45 1k, 7:50 2k. Based on these numbers, it looks like I have a relatively better 500m time compared to 2k. Perhaps this is due to form issues or lack of upper body endurance. As far as cycling goes, 5m power is my strong suit. 20m power is tough for me, but something that I am looking to improve this winter.

Goals - While I would love to get my time lower, that isn't the ultimate goal. I just really want to have several months of erg training that will benefit my cycling. That means, no weights other than that which I am doing for cycling, and no other cross training. Basically, I am wondering if I should focus the first several months on just getting use to the stroke and building base with intervals occurring later OR if I should just start doing some intervals now using my cycling fitness as the "base", and hope that form develops organically while doing intervals. OR should I be doing something completely different? As I said earlier, I would really like to do intervals of around 2k at a time minimum to get after that 20 minute power.

Okay, sorry for the length of that post. Any advice would be much appreciated. Also, I have looked at several other posts by noobs, and I haven't found a compendium for first time rowers. Does such a resource exist?

Thanks in advance,

Bill C.

p.s. Does anyone train with a cycling powermeter? My erg power is much, much lower than my cycling power output - is this normal?

You will very likely improve rapidly, in cycling you don,t use your upperbody at all, in rowing you can,t do without, although the legs do the most of work. Being a cyclist your aerobic capacity will be good enough, but your back and hands are not. Those will te be the limithing factors.
For you height you are very light, If you want to keep ist this way don,t use a to low strokingrate that will ad more muscle. I you do mind getting some extra weight, making sure you get a full strong stoke will certainly help. That will go along with a lower spm (rating / minute).

ps don,t set the lever (drag) to high, for you 110 orso is enough, that is proberly lever 2.

[Citroen]

in cycling you don,t use your upperbody at all

Surprisingly, that is not true. There's a force component through the upper body and forearms when you're climbing a hill.

[wec]

Thanks for the responses everyone!

I did another test day to see if I was just not going hard enough in the 1k. I went out hoping to stay around 1:46 but died a million deaths in the final 100m. I wound up 3:40. Maybe with better pacing I could be around 3:35. Certainly, I couldn't do the 3:24 that is deduced using the formula above, so I guess I am an outlier or there is something else going on.

Since my cycling season appears to be done (unless I can get in a few cyclocross races), I think I am just going to stick to longer sessions at lower intensity (with a low drag factor) and focus on form for now. Hopefully, I can get a video up soon. Thanks again for all of the responses.

Regards,

Bill C.

[hjs]

in cycling you don,t use your upperbody at all

Surprisingly, that is not true. There's a force component through the upper body and forearms when you're climbing a hill.

OK doug, almost not at all, take a climber and look how he is build, arms as think as a wrist all over

[wec]

UPDATE:

In case anyone was wondering, I have decided to update my progress on the erg. Less than two weeks after I posted, I moved to SoCal for work. There was no longer any need to erg in the offseason as there is no offseason there. I was able to ride pretty much everyday, and my concept2 ambitions floated away and i didn't row for over a year. I have now returned to the midwest and also returned to rowing about three weeks ago.

When I began rowing just before 2011 Christmas time, I did a 2k test and pulled a 7:52. I focused on honing my form and building "base" over the next week. Something must have clicked, because I got a lot faster immediately. I began the "Pete Plan" last week and have seen even more improvements. I don't think my fitness is improving aside from grip strength, but I feel much more economical on the machine, and I am much more prepared for the mental challenge of an all out test. This week, I did another 2k and pulled a 7:16.5. I am quite certain that I can go sub 7 with enough time in the seat which is something I never dreamed of a year ago.

Interestingly, my 500m has not improved nearly as much from last year. I pulled a 1:34.5 today after some distance work. I might be able to squeeze out another few tenths due to a poor start. The good news is that my times are beginning to look much more like conventional rower times in terms of relative pace. The bad news is that my hips seem to be protesting a bit.