Seeking Weight Training Advice

[gregsmith01748]

Hi,

Based on what I have read in the book "Rowing Faster" (Nolte, Editor), it appears that I should be working on improving my strength, because, as the book states "strength may be holding my rowing back".

The book includes a set of strength tests, based on the weight you can do 1 rep with, naturally called 1RM tests. For my age bracket (45-49), it says I should be able to:

Squat: 1.2x body weight
Deadlift: 1.2x body weight
Bench Pull: 0.94x body weight

Now, this post may be premature, but I suspect that I will not meet these criteria. The tests take a fair amount of time, and I haven't put the effort in yet, but I will. In the mean time, I am trying to work out an optimum approach for adding weight training to my routine. I have started haphazardly, and perhaps that is the best way to proceed, but I am struggling with some questions that I would appreciate others advice and feedback on.

1. How many times per week? I initially thought 3 times per week. Andy suggested that 2x might be a better fit with the rest of the erg based training that I am doing. I think he may be right. I am finding that I am "weak as a kitten" on the day following a weight training session and have a massive case of DOMS on day 2 after. Anyone have any resources that would guide me on adapting weight training to the, err, older athlete?

2. How should I expect weight training to impact my performance in erg based training? I am OK with the idea that the short term muscle damage that is a necessary part of weight training will slow me down. That is, I am OK with it if I end up being faster than where I am now once I adapt, and taper down. The thing I am looking for is a perspective on what has happened to others that add weights. Do you see interval splits going up?

3. Low reps & Heavy vs High reps & light? I know this borders dangerously close to a religious discussion for some (See Brad Lewis, Assault on Lake whatsis? for more on that one), but I'd like to know any practical experience for folks who have used weights to successfully get faster on the water or on the erg.

4. Plyometrics? Almost put myself out of commission for about a month by stupidly going at this a year ago, but I could see why explosive strength has a value. Should I be thinking this way?

5. Recommended resources? I have found 2 that specifically address strength training for rowing. The first is the chapter in the "Rowing Faster" that made me feel inadequate in the first place . The other is the chapter on Weight Training from the "Concept2 Training Guide" on the UK site. Are there other resources that provide useful guidance for using weight training for cross training purposes for endurance sports?

I know it's a lot of questions, but I thought capturing answers to these topics could provide value to a number of forum members.

Thanks in Advance.

[aharmer]

We can communicate more offline, but those numbers are not very heavy. With a little training you will hit and exceed those multiples very easily.

Proper technique on squats, deads and power cleans is very important. I wonder if you have a powerlifter trainer at a local gym you could work with. If not, YouTube is less than ideal but better than nothing.

I think power cleans are the best exercise for not only erg strength, but all over strength. If I could only do one strength exercise for the rest of my life that would be it. I personally try to do one squat workout per week, and one deadlift OR PC workout per week. I mix up the workouts, but it's basically 2x week and about 4 sets each time with as heavy as I can handle for about 6 reps per set. Sometimes I do something crazy like doing 100 bodyweight squats (talk about DOMS!) but typically it's straightforward.

I also do a lot of box jumps...simply jumping up onto a box, or platform. As high as you can jump. Sets of 10, about 5 sets. I do that a couple times a week and feel like it really helps my leg explosiveness. I dunked a basketball this spring for the first time in many years and believe it is almost exclusively from these explosion box jumps.

Run out of time, let's discuss further!

[chgoss]

Hi Greg,
my thoughts:

I (49, 205-210) have been lifting regularly for 3 years and I have a background of lifting for hockey, skiing, cycling (although I definitely would NOT call myself a "muscle head", gym rat, or being particularly good at lifting ). I do think it definitely helps rowing short distances (500m) and the final 250m sprint in a longer piece. Whether or not it helps reduce your overall 2k, 5k or 10k times, or interval performance like in a 8x500m, I couldnt really say with certainty.

I shy away from the 1 rep max tests because I"m afraid of getting hurt, this is basically my max:
Squat: 3x4x225 (3 sets of 4 reps each at 235lbs)
Deadlift: 3x4x245
Bench Pull: never tried it

I lift regularly 2x a week (I dont think there is any way I could do 3x a week) and I try to erg 4-5 days a week.
Up until 2 month's ago just a steady diet of (high weight/low rep) DeadLift, squats, hamstring, back machine, leg press, leg curl, since then I have been doing CrossFit (lower weight/higher rep) twice a week (HIIT training using free weights basically).

I lift at lunch and row in the evenings, I think people have better results switching that around (erg first then lift), but that's the situation I have, the gym is at work and the erg is at home.

I erg and lift on the same days (Mon and Friday), try to go hard as possible on both but erging definitely suffers from lifting early in the day so usually Mon and Fri night ergs are just survival mode.
That leaves Wed or Sunday nights as erg sessions where I might be able to put in a competitive race.

My advice is get started consistently 2x a week. Use mostly free weights and put your hardest effort into the compound exercises (deadlift, squat, squat clean, clean). Be sure to warm up with a set or 2 on a lighter weight for each exercise. Make sure you get some help on technique if you are new to them. Go easy and build up gradually.

For those of us in the "decay management" phases of our careers (as ErnieP says), te trick is to do it consistently and not get hurt. Everything else follows from that

[jamesg]

It says I should be able to:

Squat: 1.2x body weight
Deadlift: 1.2x body weight
Bench Pull: 0.94x body weight

So if you can, you don't need any more strength training?

If you do need a little more, which I doubt, seeing your times, you can always try pulling the same Wattages at one pip lower ratings. This is just what increased strength would allow you to do, so why not start straight away. Rowing puts your strength where it's needed, lets you do strength and CV work at the same time and is unlikely to cause injury. The only condition is technique: each stroke must be a good one, possibly better than the last, full length and fast, whatever the rating.

If you watch the Watt/Rating ratio, you can see exactly what you're doing and monitor its effects on you by feeling and HR.

[aharmer]

I'm thinking about strength training on the erg. Not just low ratings, like a 30r20 workout that many people call strength, but taking it to the next level. Something like 5 minutes or 100 strokes, whichever comes first, and pull as many meters as possible during the session. Maybe do 3-4 sets of this with short rests between? Wonder if something like that would boost strength similar in any way to weight training? If so, it would be about the most specific type of erg strength training you could do. Maybe I'll give it a shot and let you know how it feels.

[Nosmo]

It is always worth reading what Mike Caviston (of the Wolverine Plan fame and fitness coach for the Navy Seals) says.
Start with the second post of this link :
http://www.rowingillustrated.com/boards ... 073#p53073

[carlb]

I've been doing the http://www.StrongLifts.com program for 4 mos and like it. Kind of based on Starting Strength by Mark Ripetoe, a book worth having. Not targeted at rowing, just getting basic full body strength.

Couple features:

• 5x5 i.e. 5 sets, 5 reps so you don't work to failure always
  Constant progress: add 5 lbs per workout until you fail then back off 10%
  All barbell
  All basic multijoint moves with no stabilizing hand holds
  Workout A: Squat, Bench, Bent Row, pushup, abs
  Workout B: Squat, Overhead Press, Deadlift 1x5, pullup, abs

[gregsmith01748]

Wow. A lot of really good stuff here. Thanks!

I think I am finding a combination that might work for me. I'm lifting on Monday and Friday, and today, I experimented with doing a shortened L4 session after strength training (with about a 5 minute break).

I think I liked it. I was pretty much fried by the strength training session. I did a 10' minute slow cool down / warm up, and then programmed in a 40' L4 session. Since I knew that I was an empty shell of a man, I totally wimped out in terms of rate. I did 10' at 16, 10' at 18, and then did it again. Even so, I struggled hitting the split, and ultimately fell short.

But I liked it! Working at 16SPM definitely pushed me to the power end of the spectrum and that matched up well with the theme of the day. Also, having the specific rate and pace targets was very helpful when my head was more focused on "owww, make it stop!".

I definitely need to find someone to watch me doing compound lifts. I am worried that my form is not good enough to avoid injury as the weights ramp up.

Right now I am going to work on a single specific workout circuit. Pullups,squat, bench press, deadlift, dumbell row, curl, abs. I might experiment with the 5x5 idea. Right now I am doing 3 sets in a circuit format.

Any opinions about sets versus circuits? Some things I read say to do all sets for an exercise, then move on. Others advocate for moving from exercise to exercise and repeat the whole circuit?

[aharmer]

If your primary goal is gaining pure strength, I'd do the individual exercises completely then move to the next. If you want to use the strength sessions as a sort of "metcon" workout as they call it in Crossfit, you string them together and just go like a bat out of hell until you collapse on the floor. This will improve your CV fitness as well as improve strength to some extent, but you wont be using the heavy weights you would if your focus is strength improvement alone.

Personally, I do some of both. 90% of the battle is just doing it, so everything will help.

If you have access to Kettlebells, KB swings are a wonderful exercise as well. They work the entire posterior chain, and lower core (hips, thighs, butt). Again, technique is important for swings. Not so much to avoid injury, but to actually elicit the correct response. I see so many people doing swings and they just let it swing between their legs leg a pendulum. Done correctly they are one of the most difficult and explosive exercises you can do.

[bobkwan2007]

My thoughts:

As someone has already stated, those 1RM lifts are actually quite soft targets. I would revise them to 1.5x for squat, 2x deadlift, and I don't know what a 'bench pull' is, but 1.5x bench press would be a good goal for the average male.

1. Twice a week is more ideal, especially if you're rowing high volume. You will experience DOMS in the beginning workouts, especially uncomfortable with the legs and glutes. Reduce the volume on the lower body. This will help.

2. Can't comment on this. I haven't gained or lost weight since I started rowing. I will say though, that the last two months when my weight dropped a few pounds, that it felt like the rowing has suffered--seemed more effortful. But that may just be pysychological, or feeling burnt out. (I haven't had a real erg workout in over a month, and hence my absence from this board).

3. For pure strength gain, low rep and heavy--3-5 reps, 85-90%max, full recovery. For optimal muscle gain, 5-8 reps, 80-85%max. I'd stay away from the high rep/low weight. Others will disagree.

4. Someone has already stated, power cleans are great. But you must learn to do them properly. Cleans are great too. I don't know about other plyometric stuff. I only do cleans and power cleans in this particular category.

5. Don't really have any that others have not recommended, though I do read Lyle McDonald's blog, but only the pieces about training. Not really interested in the animal shelters or the inline skating stuff.

Good luck, Greg.

[aharmer]

I had another idea if you're interested in doing strength training at home. Sandbag training is awesome. You need about 6 square feet and that's it. I have a couple of the commercial sandbags (sandbagfitness.com I think), but have also made one of my own. All of the complex movements you can do with barbells can be done with sandbags, but I like them even more because of the instability of the sand. YouTube has a ton of videos on sandbag workouts if you're interested. If you are, we can talk offline on how I made my own, it's really easy and cheap.

[Tristram]

I did alot of rowing weight training during high school. we used an old canadian olympic program that was modified for the time. It has 4 phases and one was added after 1984. I will tell you the 2 most useful plus what I do now for the winter/ski season to set me up for mtb riding. These may be useful.

Phase 3: 7 exercises, 10 reps each, continuous. 20 minutes in total.

Your score is the number of times through the seven plus partials: ie 5 and 3 would be 5 times through plus 3 exercises in 20 minutes.

1)static upright row
2)composites (squat, upright row, lift above the head or squat and through above the head like a clean with leg exchange in one continuous movement)
3)bent over row
4)1/2 squat upright row
5)half squat press (bar at chest, 1/2 ish squat and press bar over head in one fluid movement)
6)dead lift (basically bend forward and lift with the back)
7) 1/4 squat curls (do quarter squat while doing a curl in a fluid movement)

Start with a 40 pound bar that has good spin for the weights. Do as many as you can before putting the bar down the first time (ie: 2 times through, then do what you can before putting it down again). We used to do up to 70 lbs, and a couple of guys 80, but 60 is good. The idea here is to perfect techniquqe to reduce transition times and to learn to utilize your whole body for the exercise. This is aneorobic training at 60 lbs and above.

next up: Phase Evans.

This is named after the Olympic champion Evans brothers from the Canadian Olympic team 1984. Basically as you decsibed: Cleans, sqauts and bench pulls. In that order.

3 sets, start with 40 reps, use 60lbs to start. Rest is the equivelent of two other guys doing the exercise with you. If it takes you 2 minutes to do it, take four minutes rest.

When you have done your 3 sets go to the next exercise. If you up the weight by 10 pounds reduce reps by about half.You can do this up to whatever weight you want, but I think the most we used is 120.

Big strength and power development.

A combination of these two plus ergometer work will make you very strong. But see how this works and modify and or discard as needed.

What I do now:

pick 3 leg and 3 arm exercises plus about 6-8 abdominal.

Alternate arms/legs for three sets up to 10 reps. then do all abdominals in succession with a max of 8 reps each (I cut it back to 6). Then next arm/leg combo, followed by abdominal, followed by 3rd combo and finish with abdominals.

Use less weight, and focus is on total body and core strength, plus multiple movements.

1) Bench/squat.
Bench: 2 dumbells 40 lbs each (then 45, and 50 for each successive set) First straight up, then alternate arms. Any combo.
Squats: on back and forth (side to side) woble board or half buso. 35lb plate. Hold out in front first one, then hold in left hand at your side, then right for successive 2 sets.
So bench, squat, bench, squat etc.

Abdominals: forward crunch, left, then right crunch, static lower abdominal sqeeze...etc

2) pull downs/leg exchange

pull down: in front 90/110/120 lbs. Use different hand positions each set (or use bands if at home)

leg exchange: total of 20 (10 each leg) modify speed of execusion.

Alternate then back to abdominals.

3) Arm curl/ leg squat/stepup

Curl: 1 weight 3 different hand positions, one per set.

Legs: single leg squat, with one leg on the bench? bench step up/squat jumps or single leg squat again. No weights, but can add plates later held in your hands.

abdominals.

This routine takes 20-25 minutes and if you start slow, will yield significant strength results, at least in my experience. This year I used this in conjunction with some ergometer work and the results were substantial on the ski hill.

Hopefully this provides you with a few ideas.

tw