Ranger's training thread

General discussion on Training. How to get better on your erg, how to use your erg to get better at another sport, or anything else about improving your abilities.
ranger
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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by ranger » July 8th, 2011, 2:45 pm

JohnBove wrote:
ranger wrote:No, Paul hasn't yet outdone my lwt 6:28 at 52. This last year, at 52, Paul pulled 6:34.

No, Roy wasn't faster than I was 55-60, especially in competition. I pulled 6:29.7, without even preparing for it. The best Roy pulled was 6:38.
Sorry, assface; the world records are theirs. Your excuses, however (and however meaningless), are yours alone.
It isn't possible to get an age-group record, if you are not yet rowing when you are that age.

Sure, Roy has the 55s lwt WR, but not for long.

In a couple of years, Paul Siebach will blow it out of the water, perhaps by as much as 5 seconds.

Both Paul and I have a number of sub-6:30 rows in competition.

Roy's best row in competition is 6:38, nowhere near.

As I have been explaining, even when I pulled a lwt 6:28 at just shy of 53, I did it rowing badly at max drag.

I was a total novice.

I didn't know how to row.

Sure, if, now, rowing well (13 SPI) and low drag (120 df.), fully prepared, I pull 6:16 at 60 and both Roy and Paul row faster than that when they are 60, breaking my 60s lwt WR, I'll be happy to grant that they are better.

I can't do any better than a lwt 6:16 at 60.

That's the limit of my potential--rowing well at low drag, fully prepared.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by ben990 » July 8th, 2011, 4:23 pm

ranger wrote:
JohnBove wrote:
ranger wrote:No, Paul hasn't yet outdone my lwt 6:28 at 52. This last year, at 52, Paul pulled 6:34.

No, Roy wasn't faster than I was 55-60, especially in competition. I pulled 6:29.7, without even preparing for it. The best Roy pulled was 6:38.
Sorry, assface; the world records are theirs. Your excuses, however (and however meaningless), are yours alone.
...

I can't do any better than a lwt 7:02.3 at 60.

That's the limit of my potential--rowing well at low drag, fully prepared.

ranger
I fixed what you wrote. You're welcome.
Rich Cureton M 60 hwt 5'11" 180 lbs. 7:02.3 (lwt) 2K

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by Citroen » July 8th, 2011, 4:47 pm

ben990 wrote:I fixed what you wrote. You're welcome.
Wasn't our hero still 59 when he rowed his 6:62.3 [sic] at BIRC?
http://concept2.co.uk/birc/results_deta ... 0&event=B8

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by mikvan52 » July 8th, 2011, 6:37 pm

Has ranger sent in his ap' for the HOCR yet? ... anyone??

.... didn't think so.


"Blah-blah-blah, blah-blah!" sayeth the bard of the metronome..

"All 'blow' and no 'go', sez I... :mrgreen:

r-boy's limit is not "6:16" , it's the confines of this thread... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

WIll he face Rocket next February?
answer= no...
Losing to Roy Brook is redundant... for the nutty professor ... B)

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by ranger » July 9th, 2011, 4:32 am

As I have been mentioning, OTErg, the most surprising, because entirely unnecessary, limitation of veterans is their glaring technical weaknesses.

These weaknesses have nothing to do with losses in aerobic capacity, reduced training time, lifestyle diferences, or any of the other things that might slow down a veteran rower relative to younger rowers, including a younger self.

Just rowing normally, the best young rowers get half again as much work done per stroke than veteran rowers.

Many veteran lightweights pull 9 SPI; elite young lightweights pull 13 SPI.

Many veteran heavyweights pull 11 SPI; elite young heavyweights pull 16 SPI.

I suspect the culprit in all of this technical decline with age is the closely integrated organization of the rowing stroke, especially the four parts of the drive: Catch-PUSH-PRY-Finish.

If other veterans rowers are anything like me, I would guess that without a _great deal_ of pretty frustrating and difficult work on technique, they botch, pretty badly, all four stages of the drive.

For instance, at the catch, I would guess that most veterans do not really get well forward with their backs, up on the balls of their feet, at full slide, with relaxed shoulders and abs. I know that I certainly didn't. Rather, they short slide, tense up their shoulders and abs by pulling too early with their upper body, and start swinging their back, right from the get-go, expending much of the contribution of back and arms at the catch in order to support a weak push with the quads. This sort of catch leads to an _enormous_ close in peak force with the legs, as much as a 50% loss.

Once the catch is botched in this way, then the PUSH with the heels, hams, and gluts is necessarily botched, too. Unless your hips remain closed and forward, and therefore well braced, it is very difficult to be fast enough with the legs in order to lift your weight off the seat with your heels and hams and hang on the handle, especially at low drag, with a tensed upper body, and with slow, old legs. If your legs are slow and poorly braced, it is also hard to be fast enough with them, so that they get pushed through before opening the hips and swinging the back. And, of course, if you have already opened the hips and swung the back, the issue is moot. The center of the stroke becomes slow and poorly sequenced. The levers all work together, and in slow motion, like a spoon caught in molasses.

After this doubly botched beginning, the PRY of the stroke is lost entirely--for multiple reasons. The upper body was all tensed up long and ago and therefore is still improperly braced for a good swing with the back. And, anyway, the back has already been swinging, so isn't even available. More seriously, though, since the core was tensed up at the catch, it _can't_ be tensed now to get the kind of speed with the back that is needed to accelerate the chain after the use of the legs. To compensate for this, the legs are used here, much too late and much too slowly, so that the force on the handle doesn't collapse entirely, and to do this, the heels are the best supports at the footplate, so there is no way to get back up on the balls of the feet in order to get an effective pry at all with the back, even if the back were still available for swinging.

Then, at the finish, since the heels are still planted at the footplate, it is also impossible to get appropriate pressure forward at the footplate to get a fast finish with the arms, braced against the back. The finish is done on the heels, rather than on the toes, and even so, with little speed, and therefore force.

With all four of the parts of the drive botched in this way, the rowing stroke becomes like a slow motion picture of the steady opening of a flower, OOOOOPPPPPEEEEENNNNN, rather than like a whiplash, with multiple sources of forceful, braced, independently executed but closely timed and sequenced leverage: Catch-Push-Pry-Finish.

Result: 50% of the potential power in the stroke is lost.

Of course, there are other ways to go fast in rowing rather than just getting a lot of work done on each stroke. But for other reasons, these other ways are not as available. One of the magically paradoxical things about rowing is that, all things equal, the more work you do on the drive, the more time you get to rest on the recovery. As the drive quickens, the recovery lengthens. The ratio rises. On the other hand, if you have a weak drive, the drive time lengthens and the ratio falls. If this weren't the case, it is conceivable, I suppose, that an older rower with good aerobic capacity might be able to stroke weakly but raise the rate so radically that they indeed compensated for their technical weakness. That is, the veteran might be able to take half strokes but raise the rate to 60 spm for 2K, rather than putzing along at 30 spm with full strokes. This is _very_ hard to do, though, if the veteran is already in a 1-to-1 ratio at 40 spm. You can only eggbeater along so fast. Somewhere around a 1-to-1 ratio is the limit to eggbeatering. You have to have enough time to get up the slide for the next stroke. Unfortunately, 40 spm using a half stroke is only the equivalent of 20 spm with a full stroke. So, this eggbeater strategy can't get the job done of catching up with the elite younger rowers, either, especially if elite younger rowers, taking full strokes, can rate 40 spm themselves, and in a 2-to-1 ratio.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by ranger » July 9th, 2011, 4:56 am

Aerobic capacity declines steadily with age.

But there is no reason at all for technique to decline with age.

If your technique is declining with age, you just need to attend to it.

You need to stop using all of your training time working on your fitness and spend more of your training time working on your technique.

You need to get at the source of why you are so slow so that you can shore up your major weakness.

Veteran rowers are necessarily challenged aerobically.

Why compound the problem with poor technique?

Let me venture this:

I suspect that as much as half of the historically observed decline with age in indoor rowing is due to bad technique rather than a decline in aerobic capacity.

The currently observed decline with age in indoor rowing is something like a second over 2K after 20.

But the part of this decline in 2K times that is due to a decline in aerobic capacity, I think, is only .5 seconds a year over 2K after 20.

The rest of the decline in 2K times with age is due to poor rowing.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by ranger » July 9th, 2011, 5:17 am

For veteran rowers, at least, knowing how to row well is not at all the same as doing it.

In order to row well--automatically, easily, normally, etc.--you need to do it--a lot.

If your legs are slow, you need to train them to be fast.

If you can't relax your shoulders and abs at the catch, you need to train yourself to do it.

If your footwork is sloppy, you need to clean it up.

If you are short-sliding, you need to get more length.

If you can't accelerate the chain with your back and arms, you need to learn how to do it.

If your stroke is like a flower opening in slow motion, a spoon stuck in molasses, you need to learn to make it explode with force like a whiplash.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

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Re: Oh what a tangled web we weave

Post by PaulH » July 9th, 2011, 12:42 pm

Nice sequences of hefty posts, ranger. I assume you're trying to bury Byron's impressively brief demonstration that your words are worthless.
Byron Drachman wrote:
Ranger wrote:Oct 3, 2006: Sharpening needs to be done for six weeks or so before you race

Jan 27: 2010: I now have seven weeks of sharpening.

July 8, 2011: What I said is that I haven't sharpened since 2003.
Any defense, or do you concede the point?

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Re: Oh what a tangled web we weave

Post by mikvan52 » July 9th, 2011, 1:05 pm

PaulH wrote:Nice sequences of hefty posts, ranger. I assume you're trying to bury Byron's impressively brief demonstration that your words are worthless.
Byron Drachman wrote:
Ranger wrote:Oct 3, 2006: Sharpening needs to be done for six weeks or so before you race

Jan 27: 2010: I now have seven weeks of sharpening.

July 8, 2011: What I said is that I haven't sharpened since 2003.
Any defense, or do you concede the point?
the "universal" ranger symbol

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Liar, Liar, Pants on fire

Blowin' smoke since 2003!
:lol: :lol:

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by kini62 » July 9th, 2011, 4:03 pm

ranger wrote:
Today, I tried this with the second part of the drive, the push with the hams and gluts off the heels.
ranger

Just WTF does "gluts" have to do with anything? Besides not being a real word the closest one can get to "gluts" is

glut |glət|
noun
an excessively abundant supply of something

Which in your case could mean many things, like shit for brains, alcohol consumption, fat, stupidity.... the list is nearly endless.

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by JimmyL » July 9th, 2011, 4:07 pm

kini62 wrote:
ranger wrote:
Today, I tried this with the second part of the drive, the push with the hams and gluts off the heels.
ranger

Just WTF does "gluts" have to do with anything? Besides not being a real word the closest one can get to "gluts" is

glut |glət|
noun
an excessively abundant supply of something

Which in your case could mean many things, like shit for brains, alcohol consumption, fat, stupidity.... the list is nearly endless.
That's a bit harsh to be honest
J16, 72kg.
2k 7:08.6
2k OTW 8:01.9

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by KevJGK » July 9th, 2011, 6:56 pm

kini62 wrote:
ranger wrote:
Today, I tried this with the second part of the drive, the push with the hams and gluts off the heels.
ranger

Just WTF does "gluts" have to do with anything? Besides not being a real word the closest one can get to "gluts" is

glut |glət|
noun
an excessively abundant supply of something

Which in your case could mean many things, like shit for brains, alcohol consumption, fat, stupidity.... the list is nearly endless.
Kini

I think he meant glutes i.e the gluteus maximus (also known as glutæus maximus) which is the largest and most superficial of the three gluteal muscles. It makes up a large portion of the shape and appearance of the buttocks.

So he simply missed out an 'e'.
Kevin
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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by Bob S. » July 9th, 2011, 10:33 pm

KevJGK wrote:
So he simply missed out an 'e'.
That's why your response was a bit harsh - for just a typical typo.

Bob S.

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by Carl Watts » July 10th, 2011, 12:05 am

Bob S. wrote:
KevJGK wrote:
So he simply missed out an 'e'.
That's why your response was a bit harsh - for just a typical typo.

Bob S.
Naah just another example that he doesn't know his arse from his elbow.
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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by ranger » July 10th, 2011, 2:12 am

mikvan52 wrote:WIll he face Rocket next February?
Sorry, but the burden of the question is the other way around.

I have been rowing continuously for a decade now, both OTErg and OTW.

During those years, I have had the best 2K time in the 50s/55s lwts for five of those ten years, with sub-6:30 rows as a heavyweight in two other years.

I rarely miss a day of rowing, either OTErg or OTW, or both.

I am a rower.

It's Rocket who isn't primarily a rower.

He's a biker.

For the last three years, he hasn't been rowing much at all.

He has been biking.

He has never rowed OTW.

Heck, I am not even sure he is interested in rowing for itself.

If he were, he'd have been rowing OTW--long ago.

It would be easy for Roy to join a club, buy a boat, learn to row, etc.

I bought a boat eight years ago.

But Roy doesn't seem interested.

So the question this year, like the question last year, and the year before, and the year before, is whether Roy will be racing this winter, not whether I will.

Has Roy sent in his entry for the Head of the Charles?

If not, he'd better hurry.

The deadline is quickly approaching.

ranger
Last edited by ranger on July 10th, 2011, 2:34 am, edited 2 times in total.
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

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