Max Heart Rate: what is it?

[dave2013]

I recently purchased “Lactate Threshold Training” and an confused about the definition of “Max Heart Rate.”

It seems from the discussion that most athletes achieve maximum heart rate doing short intensive pieces, like in interval training. This is not how my body works. I achieve maximum heart rate over long duration pieces at intense efforts.

For example, I did a 2K test today with a max heart rate of 172. But on an intense 10K I’ve gotten a heart rate as high as 189. I can never get my heart rate over 180 on anything less than a 5K.

Here are my heart rates based on erg pieces I’ve done over the past 2 years:
Duration No Pieces Avg HR for piece Avg Max HR per piece
1 hour 21 165.7 180.0
10,000 m 64 162.3 175.0
5000 m 57 155.9 168.5
2,000 m 126 160.6 167.0
4 min 42 157.8 163.9
1,000 m 70 158.9 168.9
500 m 152 152.7 161.2

For me there is clearly a relationship between duration and heart rate. It’s not the short, sprint, anaerobic type work outs that elevate my heart rate. It is the long duration, intense distance pieces that produce the higher heart rate.

Is this unusual?

I need to better understand what is my “Max Heart Rate” in order to properly establish my training intensity. Any help is greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Dave

[jamesg]

It's normal. Just another example of HR control falling down once you're fit and have learnt to row. HR has other purposes.

For basic race training, better use Power and Rating together: the classic 60, 70 and 80% of last 2k watts and rating. We can adjust that too, if we want. That's what the erg readout is for, there's no point in using dodgy DDR methods when the erg is years ahead in accuracy and ready data.

We can of course forget the lot and just do our miles, maybe with specifics if we want to race.

[Carl Watts]

Struggling with your numbers, whats your pace ?

Your heartrate is going to tie in with your pace, 2K is long enough to hit your maximum HR, 5Km is certainly long enough to hit your maximum HR.

If your rowing the shorter rows at the same pace as the longer rows your not going to hit that maximum.

Also an issue is that your rating or SPM could be too high for your pace. If for example your doing 30spm and only 2:30 pace you may have no chance of hitting your maximum.

Its all relative. I found I didn't hit my Max HR for the 500m, but thats because its so short and trust me your legs fail before anything else.

[hjs]

A very anaerobic piece often does not give a max hf. You need enough duration and full use of your aerobic system plus a last max bit to really get a max. You should be close to falling of the erg. So super unpleasant.

[zacclowes]

can remember what its called but as part of a cycling training program i did the fitness test where you ride on a stationary bike and ride with the resistance ramping up gradually (like 10-15 minutes) till you can't go anymore at which point you try and sprint and theoretically hit your max heart rate which for me was 192. I hit that same number a handful of times in races and once or twice training. once since then I got the same number running.
It takes a lot to get to that max reading and I've not yet been there on the rower

[lindsayh]

I agree with the above. your MHR is the fastest maximum you can see at the end of a really hard piece.
The Australian institute of Sport method involves gradually increasing pace on intervals of 4'/1'r stepping down each one (say 5 or 6 times) until you fail so it has to really hurt.

[dave2013]

Thanks everyone.

I should have provided some more detail in my original post.

My ultimate objective is to identify the proper level of intensity to develop an effective training plan. Max heart rate seems to be a critical metric in this endeavor.

I am am a 61 year old male, 6'1", 180 pounds, competitive masters rower. Here are my PBs over the past 14 months (distance, duration, 500m pace, spm, avg HR and max HR):
1 hour 60:00.0 01:57.7 25spm 164bpm 181bpm
10,000m 38:40.5 01:56.0 26spm 167bpm 182bpm
5000m 18:27.0 01:50.7 29spm 170bpm 179bpm
2000m 06:57.8 01:44.5 31spm ---bpm 172bpm
4 min 04:00.0 01:41.6 30spm 162bpm 167bpm
1000m 03:18.2 01:39.1 36spm ---bpm 167bpm
500m 01:29.4 01:29.4 38spm 152bpm 164bpm
1 min 01:00.0 01:26.7 40spm 164bpm 164bpm

As you can see, my max HR on the 500 is 17 bpm lower than it is on the 10K. As I mentioned, I can never, ever, get a HR as high on a short duration piece (<=2K) as I can on a longer piece (>=5K)

Yesterday I did a 2K at 06:59.7 (01:44.9) @ 30 spm with an average heart rate of 167 and a max heart rate of 171. My lactate level 7 minutes after completion was 17.3 mmols/l.

As I understand it there are three possible ways to measure the intensity of a workout:
1. Wattage. Compare the wattage on a given piece against the wattage of your personal best for that distance (e.g., 85% of your 2K PB wattage). This works well for the erg but because of variations in wind and water conditions, not so well for OTW pieces.
2. Heart rate (HR). Establish your max HR (and HRdefl) as a baseline. This sounds good in theory but as you can see from my experience, HR performance seems to vary greatly with individuals (e.g, in my case my 10K HRmax is significantly higher than my 500m HRmax).
3. Blood lactate concentration. This seems to be the most objective measurement and last week I purchased a "Lactate Plus" testing device. I also purchased a copy of Dr Peter Janssen's book "Lactate Threshold Training." Granted I am new to the theory, but what concerns me is that fundamental to a lot of the assertions in the book is that HRmax occurs during short, intense anaerobic pieces (e.g., 500m). This is definitely not the case for me.

So what I am trying to do is reconcile these three methods (wattage, HR and lactate level) to give me confidence I understand the theory and can establish a proper and effective training program.

So I guess my basic question is: how many of you achieve HRmax on short high intensity pieces (eg., 6x500m/1:00'r) versus, like me, on a hard long duration piece (e.g., 10K).

Thanks for any input.
Dave

[dave2013]

For example, here is my heart rate on a hard interval training session (10x1:00/1:15r):

[dave2013]

...but here is my heart rate on a hard 1 hour piece...

[dave2013]

.. finally here is my HR when I got a PB for 4 minute piece...

[hjs]

Hf and single short pieces don,t match very well, because the anaerobic system does a lot off work. To get you hf to the max your aerobic system needs to fully be used.
Shorter reps can do this cause again the duration in total is long enough.
Don,t no what you are looking for, but to me you have penty of data. You know you max, you know on shorter work you don,t come close etc.
Maybe you expect to much from hf alone. On shorter work our hf is that important. Anaerobic power is.

To be honoust, I don,t use hf at all. Erg on pace, spm duration/feel only.

[lindsayh]

Thanks everyone.
So what I am trying to do is reconcile these three methods (wattage, HR and lactate level) to give me confidence I understand the theory and can establish a proper and effective training program.
So I guess my basic question is: how many of you achieve HRmax on short high intensity pieces (eg., 6x500m/1:00'r) versus, like me, on a hard long duration piece (e.g., 10K). Thanks for any input. Dave

Dave I guess I agree with Henry. Watching your heart rate is interesting particularly if you want to stay in the aerobic zone and cap it but may be no more accurate than using the perceived effort that you feel yourself as a way of judging your training plans. The really intense sessions should be about 25% of your total and the rest can be easier depending on what you want to do. There is really good evidence to suggest that as we age the hard sessions are the ones we should maintain. (there is a really interesting thread on this just below on aging and resistance training)

It seems to me that your MHR is about 189 (that is the highest you have seen) and if you are very fit (which you obviously are) then you wont go anywhere near that on the shorter interval pieces like the 500s unless you did about 20 of them at warp speed.
In general fit people will be the same - it takes a lot more than 6 x90" intervals with rests to get to max. for example I did 20x 250m/90"r tonite without my HR getting above 145. The answer to the question is that nearly everyone will achieve their MHR on a hard long duration piece rather than short intervals unless they force the point by the intervals being at least 4' and the rests no longer than 1' and at full tilt.

There has been some good recent discussion on lactate levels here if you search the training thread - Greg Smith has used the methods a lot and has described it here.
It is hard(ish) to do and you need to buy a machine and get used to pricking your finger a lot. The aim is to train at 2-4mmol/L lactate to stay in the aerobic zone. The 70-80% HR zone is a simple and reasonable proxy for that.
Best of luck

[dave2013]

Thanks for the good input. I think I better understand the concept now now.

I am relatively new to training/physiology theory and the impression I got from what I was reading was that I should hit HRmax on short, high intense pieces at max wattage. It makes sense that this type of effort is primarily anaerobic and will not be long enough duration to fully engage the aerobic system and maximize heart rate.

So your explanation relates better to what I am observing.

Thanks again.

[dave2013]

By the way, I did purchase a Lactate tester last week. Cost w/test strips is roughly the same as a speed coach.

The main drawback is not so much the finger lancing but the cost of the test strips, about $2 each.

There is some technique to taking the sample so you don’t get an error but you can master it in about half dozen tries.

Saturday I did a 2K at 6:59.7 with HR of 173 that corresponds to a lactate level of 17.3.
Sunday I did a 6K recovery piece at 27:58.1 with a HR of 124 that corresponds to a lactate reading of 2.2

The HR of 124 on the 6K piece is 65% of my observed HRmax of 189. This is close to the 70-80% HRmax they say you should shoot for on your aerobic training. But the wattage was only 128 and it certainly didn’t feel like I got much training benefit from it. The lactate level (2.2) was at the low end of the 2-4 mmol/l range so I will try bumping the pace up to 160 watts and see what kind of HR and lactate levels result.

I compete in the San Diego Crew Classic on Sunday but later on that week I plan to take the 7x4 minute step protocol test that is supposed to establish maximal performance levels for lactate and HR. Here is a good article on the test:
http://highperformancerowing.net/journa ... tocol.html

Thanks again for your input.

[hjs]

Easy u2 training needs volume, 6k rows for that are to short.