Pete Plan Group - Startup Aug 20th thru 22nd

[jackarabit]

@ Gordon: the pneumax shot for old wrinklies is also nasty strong this yr. Had that and flu vaccine last wkend. Bugs were winning for two days.

[Pie Man]

@Glenn, there should be a record awarded by Concept for the best 4 x 2k time a day after a colonoscopy, I'm sure you would be the holder and probably the only entrant for many years to come...
@Gordon, store all the problems with the row in your memory, it's very useful to know what doesn't work as well as what does. I find heat a particular time killer for me, so now I avoid the times when the erg at the gym will be in full sun. It's not always possible so when it is in full sun I reduce my pace. Having children near the erg sounds worse than heat then coupled with a flu jab I think you have discovered a perfect storm.

@Mike, I'm really enjoying trading times with you, solid 5K especially considering your warm up sounded pretty tough!

@Paul great to see you join in, and doing the 5k training, it's going to be very interesting to see that come along.

@Rohan have a great trip.

@everyone else, great 4 x 2k and PBB times coming in this thread moves so fast.

Today I didn't feel great, but had a bit of time so as I have just joined the Forum Flyers I need to set a cross team challenge distance for a 10 minute row. So I decided to try a 10' row as my 'hard distance' today, I know it doesn't count as a long distance, but it certainly was hard.
Looking at what my PP times predict (roughly a 1:50 2k) I decided I might just be able to get around 2700m with 1:51 average.
I got 2709m @ 1:50.7 33spm 159 Av HR which I am pleased with. I passed 2k around 7:25, and then managed to up the pace to 1:48.8 @32spm for the last 2 minutes. I didn't get tunnel vision, but a slight cough started around 20 mins later to prove I had been trying.

[mdpfirrman]

We'll let you "slide" on today Piers! I'd claim that as your PB. Not like you'd be lying. Just round it off. You'd crush your 2K PB now - I'm thinking you're in the 7:10 to 7:15 range like I am now. Being able to up the pace for the last two minutes says something!

[Pie Man]

Thanks Mike, I suspected I was sub 7:20 and I'd agree 7:15 seems possible, my first 2 mins was only 1:52.1 pace which I do need to address if I am going to pull my best 2k (or shorter times) warm up was 2k with hard pulls every 500m, I do feel warmed up, but the first part of any row seems to be a slow start, with me doubting I can even finish. It's a bit odd but my times are pleasing and it was only 2 mins of this row.

[G-dub]

Piers, not taking away anything from where you were before, but you are really becoming a force (within the context of us normal mid to back of the packers of course) rather quickly! Great stuff. I think dialing in your warm up as Jack would suggest would be a bonus on the 2K. And you might benefit from trying what Edward of Jersey does (and frankly I have done too and may do again), which is to decide to go out a titch under target the first 200 or so. Fast and crisp head down then pull up and get into a good rhythm through the middle. I think that having an aggressive mindset helps and an aggressive start sets the tone. Give it a try sometime. I have been doing it on almost all of my intervals and it puts you into the piece quickly. There is also a technique popularized by the same Edward of Jersey that puts a little 10-15 stroke soft spot at about 1500 in to the 2K which allows you to gather and then commit to the end. For me it acted as a little buoy to swim to.

note: physics says that flat pacing wins, so the recommendation is more mental than physic-al

[aussieluke]

Mike, great to see you like kettlebell training! I've been using KBs since about 2009. My favourite strength tool by far. I've been through all sorts of programs and methods, and done a lot of my own thing too.

I have my doubts about the simple and sinister program. It is a great book to introduce you to the kettlebell, with great basic instructions on correct form etc. What I really don't agree with, and many share the same opinion, is that getups should a) definitely not be done quickly to try and meet a certain time goal, and b) adding weight should not be the main focus. Also the book places way too much emphasis on the one hand swing, however the two hand swing can be a much more powerful movement and should be practiced for a long time before devoting all your time to the one hand version.

You could use nothing but a 16kg kettlebell for years and get very strong with it. I myself already had a bit of a strength base from a load of barbell training, so I started with a 24kg, and that was all I had for a couple of years. I struggled with a lot of things and eventually bought a 16kg later on and wished I had from the start.

Since then I've been through all sorts of phases and ended up buying lots of different kettlebells (I'd pick them up second hand when I saw bargains) and had about 13 at one point from 16 up to 40kg. And honestly soon i started wishing I only had one or two! The joy of kettlebells is their simplicity. Have one. Use it. A lot. Use it some more. If it is too light, do more reps, do slower reps, take it onto the lawn and try tossing it about and juggling with it.

I ended up selling on a lot of mine and now only have three - a classic set of 16, 24 and 32kg

...and I still mostly use the 24

[Goldenbarry]

image.jpeg

[Joe L]

I took it a little easy on the hard distance tonight. Still a good workout though. 10K at 23spm 1:50 pace.

[aussieluke]

@Mike - Haven't done much research on kettle ball, my sons have an olympic rack in the basement but my shoulders are shot from pitching BP for years, so I can't bar squat. Is a kettle ball a good replacement for that?

Tim, I don't know if the KB replaces bar work but it does allow me to do more compound lifting with less weight. I can't deadlift or squat too heavy with my right knee (nasty injury years ago). The nice thing about KBs is you can start really light. Get the form down, then gradually work up as you feel stronger.

I know many guys claim huge gains on their deadlifts after doing S&S (Simple & Sinister), even if they aren't continuing to deadlift. Essentially it's the same muscles worked, just (to me) less strain on the joints (though the Turkish Getups are very challenging on the shoulder so you use a much lighter weight). I've had shoulder issues too in the past (torn rotator cuff several times and a broken collarbone too). With proper warmup, I've not had any issues with KBs. If you're interested, start very light and work hard on form (just like rowing).

Just wanted to add a few more thoughts about kettlebell training, but not to derail this thread any further I'll just dump it all in this one post!

The two-hand kettlebell swing, done right, as a hip hinge, and not a squat, is essentially the same movement as the barbell deadlift ...the strength and power comes from 'virtual force' when you explosively reverse the direction of the bell at the bottom of a swing, and the fact that you can do many reps in a row.

There are a lot of claims about kettlebells being basically magic - torching fat, burning more calories than anything else, the only cardio you'll ever need, 'android-like work capacity' blah blah. I used to be sucked into all that stuff but it is mostly marketing rubbish. BUT that does not take away from the fact that kettlebells, used correctly, are an amazing full-body strength and conditioning tool. The fact that they are so small, convenient, durable and portable, plus the way the lend themselves to 'ballistic' movements such as the swing, snatch and jerk, and are also very well suited to overhead presses, great just to carry around, and easy to hook your feet into for weighted pullups etc, makes them very versatile.

Having tried just about everything you can do with a kettlebell - or two, I think the few things that have the most benefit are:

"Hard-style" kettlebell lifting

Two-hand swings - for hip and glute power and strength, 'core' strength, grip strength, shoulder strength, posture AND high intensity interval training (try 10 reps on the minute for 10, 15 or 20 minutes)

Goblet squats - allows a deep, full ROM squat and great for leg strength and mobility of the hips, knees and ankles, great for posture. You can't squat 'heavy' with a kettlebell, but you can squat WELL (3-5 sets of 5 slow reps, with pauses at the bottom of at least one rep per set to stretch everything out)

One-arm overhead press - full ROM press - more than you can with a barbell or dumbbell. Allows the entire shoulder to move in a natural way. Using a single bell allows you to use more weight per arm than if you used two at once. Requires less thoracic mobility but will develop great posture, core strength and full-body tension - you can't hold a heavy weight overhead if there is any weakness between your hand and your feet! (3-5 ladders of 1,2,3 left and right)

I do like getups, but they are a logistical nightmare, and chances are you are not doing them 'right', and they are hard on the knees. Try doing 'naked' getups ie with no weight in your hand, just do the movement, slow and controlled. 3-5 reps per side is a great warmup - then grab your kettlebell and do some goblet squats, swings and presses.

Girevoy sport

The other side of the kettlebell coin is kettlebell or 'girevoy' sport (GS) - which is basically three lifts done for competition: 1 arm snatch and 2 arm jerk OR 2 arm long cycle clean and jerk

These are also three amazing full-body strength and conditioning exercises, and doing just one or two or all three of those lifts exclusively would be time well spent. These lifts are done in the 'hard-style' kettlebell camps too (RKC, Strongfirst) but IMO there is no point making them 'harder' when the original GS movement is so fluid and efficient. Watching a top GS athlete popping two 32kg bells overhead for rep after rep after rep is astonishing (though still boring, lol).

The derivatives of these lifts, the one arm clean and jerk and clean and push press are also very effective and don't require as much flexibility or carry as much risk of injury. A very simple workout of 10 sets of 10/10 one arm push presses, for example, is an incredible full-body workout.


Sorry to ramble so much!

Just one more thought: don't buy cheap kettlebells! As fans of the C2 erg no doubt most here can appreciate paying a little more for a better quality piece of equipment that will last a lifetime. Dragondoor kettlebells are still the best IMO in terms of shape, dimensions, handle thickness and finish. There are worth the money and will outlive you and your grandkids! Rogue kettlebells are pretty good and well priced, though the finish can be a little rough on the hands. Kettlebells USA 'Metrix' bells are apparently very close to the Dragondoor but I have never tried one - they are well priced and often have free shipping deals in the US

Although they all pretty much look the same, not all kettlebells are created equal. And something you will be lifting for hundreds of reps every workout will soon get very annoying/uncomfortable/painful if it isn't right. Please don't buy gloss painted ones, chrome handled ones, vinyl covered ones, or ones that have extra fat handles that claim to be better for grip strength!

[aussieluke]

Pete Plan day 5

Hard distance

1000m warmup

5000m 19:23.2 (1:56.3) r26 HR168 (max 178) df130

1000m cooldown

https://instagram.com/p/BKr5Q5zgGh0/

Much harder than I thought it would be! Was hoping for 1:55 but after my 5x1500m scores this week I'm not surprised.

Tried rating higher but it didn't help was most comfortable at 26/27 pulling 1:56, but a few dips and rough patches along the way so fairly inconsistent.

Followed by barbell press 3 x 1,2,3 48kg

[bisqeet]

I took it a little easy on the hard distance tonight. Still a good workout though. 10K at 23spm 1:50 pace.

That's a decent spi (stroke/power index) for that distance. Proves is not just raw power you have, but a very good aerobic base.
One of the things i will do is take my 2k spi (delta power/ delta stroke rate) and use this for longer distances, just adapt the SPM accordingly..
I.e
2k = 7:00 spm = 30
~300w / 30 = 10 W

Hm @ r20 = 10 * 20 = 200 W => 2:00/500m Pace.

I think this is the best training method to use, and encorperate it into all my training. (mass being probaly HM distances at lower than 2k rates / UT2).

Its one of the reasons i'm against higher rating (higher than you would normally use in either race situations; for me I doubt that I have ever reached more than 30 OTW in a quad or 34 in a single) as a training method - my personal opinion is that it leads towards a weaker stroke -(the max watts/pace staying the same)

Your spi is probably between 12-13w. The math is just easier with my examples


Advantages: the drive is the same. You just get a longer rest between strokes, hence stopping in ut2, no lactate build up/ increased lactate tolerance / stoffwechsel ( can't think of the English word????)
...good training stuff, Joe.

[JohnAd]

Hello all,

I've been following this thread with interest for a week or so. I had some trouble activating my account but that's sorted now. Today completed BPP W2D2 - am I too late to join?

Welcome Nick (is that right), the more the merrier. I think your introduction post might have got a bit lost, this thread is moving fast, but it is good to be doing it with others and there are few doing the BPP to share war stories with, it also seems to help posting the results publicly.

I will try to sort out my profile so it shows this information in the future but, for now, I will say here that I am a 29 year old, 5 ft 5 / 165cm, stocky but overweight 81kg male. Hardly built for 6 min 2Ks but would like to push well in to the 7 mins, and generally push myself to my healthiest and fittest. In what should be a peak age for me, I'm playing catch up. Resolved to be the weight I want to be by my 30th birthday in July 2017. 68kg or so, ideally. Erging over the last few weeks has been the most dedicated I've been to a particular regime of exercise and I'm excited about the future and, for the first time, the gym! I'm losing weight with healthier eating and for once am not eating back the calories I'm burning from the extra work at the gym.

Thanks for introducing yourself and for putting your goals out there. It does get quite addictive one you get into a plan.

4x750m/2min

12.33.0. Avg 2.05.5

Looking good, pretty even reps and faster than the 6x500m with less rest so it's all good.

The first one felt hard! The second harder. And so on.

Yep, part of the fun of erging is finding out that you can do more than you thought you could.

If you're happy for me to join this thread, my main question at the moment is this:
Last week I managed an average of 2:06.8 on the 6x500m, but with a rate of 23. Today I purposely upped the rate but wouldn't be able to maintain much faster a pace. In my longer sessions I am normally around a 22 rating. What should I aim for in the interval work?

You've pretty much hit on the right kind of numbers straight away, but don't worry too much about it a this stage. In general the rate for sprint intervals are higher rate than the endurance intervals which are higher than the longer distance stuff. Have look at Dean's post above this one, that's one way of thinking about it, keep the drive the same just vary the recovery. With 6x500m @ r23 I'd be concerned that your going too long at the catch or leaning too far back which may lead to injury, wanting to do the 750 intervals at a higher rate is a good sign I think. As you get fitter you may find that the rate on the longer pieces drifts up a bit but there is plenty of time for all that, for now listen to your body and concentrate on "technique, relaxation, and efficiency" like Pete says.

[aussieluke]

A PB, races are won by tenths

Congrats, never knock a PB no matter how small.

Ha, yeah even better than my .7 PB on my 2k last time I tested!

[hjs]

Guys know this: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=149488

Maybe you could form a team from this thread? Individual joining is also possible.

[JohnAd]

Maybe you could form a team from this thread? Individual joining is also possible.

I've joined this as an individual but having a Pete Plan team would be great.