A Question on Stroke Rate, Heart Rate and Steady State

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JerekKruger
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Re: A Question on Stroke Rate, Heart Rate and Steady State

Post by JerekKruger » January 13th, 2018, 6:23 pm

Dangerscouse wrote:@ Tom, I looked at my force curve for the first time today thanks to your post and the 'perfect' curve link.

Surprisingly I do have an almost perfect curve as I didn't look at the link until after I tried it so as not to add any bias to my conclusion. I did notice that I'm still slightly too upper body dominant as it changed, if only slightly, when I focused on the leg push.
Interesting. Do you use ErgData? If so would you mind setting it to display peak force and report back on what sorts of values you get when rowing your higher rated steady state type rows? I'd be very interested to see how it compares to mine when rowing at a similar split but lower rate.
Tom | 33 | 6'6" | 93kg

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Dangerscouse
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Re: A Question on Stroke Rate, Heart Rate and Steady State

Post by Dangerscouse » January 14th, 2018, 2:57 am

Yes and yes mate. Is it as simple as you make it sound? I usually just use ergdata to capture the session and don't look at it until the end.

Will it just need to be a screenshot? I'm planning on a 5k tomorrow (short on time) but it should be a 16k on Wednesday morning as I need to break out of this mini slump
44 Years Old; 6' 4"; 95kg; Liverpool, England 2k= 6:38; 5k= 17:29; 6k= 21:54; 10k= 36:21 30mins= 8,264m 60mins= 16,317m HM= 1:18:40; FM= 2:49:39; 50k= 3:28:18; 75k=5:29:15; 100k= 7:52:44; 12hrs = 153km

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JerekKruger
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Re: A Question on Stroke Rate, Heart Rate and Steady State

Post by JerekKruger » January 14th, 2018, 7:51 am

Dangerscouse wrote:Yes and yes mate. Is it as simple as you make it sound? I usually just use ergdata to capture the session and don't look at it until the end.
By default (I think) ErgData displays Stroke Count and Drive Length on the right hand side of the screen. If you touch either of those two boxes it'll bring up a menu where you can choose between several other things it can display, one of which is Peak Force). Unfortunately ErgData doesn't save this information so you'd have to glance at it occasionally to get an idea what sort of values you're pulling. So long as your stroke rate and pace remain relatively constant the value shouldn't change all that much, and I'm not looking for exact values but rather a rough idea of what your typical stroke is. Don't feel like you have to if it gets in the way of your training, I'm just interested to see the difference with me.
Will it just need to be a screenshot? I'm planning on a 5k tomorrow (short on time) but it should be a 16k on Wednesday morning as I need to break out of this mini slump
Sounds good to me. Again don't feel obliged and if you forget don't feel bad. It's not important, it's just a case of curiosity on my part.
Tom | 33 | 6'6" | 93kg

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jbhop5857
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Re: A Question on Stroke Rate, Heart Rate and Steady State

Post by jbhop5857 » January 14th, 2018, 3:59 pm

20k R20? Jeepers, that sounds like it is quite difficult. What HR zone do you stay in doing that?

David
Age: 38
6ft.
235lbs.
2k: 6:50.2 - 2017 Yeah, I count the tenths on this one.
5K: 18:51 - 2017
6K: 23:28 - 2015
10K: 39:49 - 2017
HM: 1:22:48 - 2017
30 Min: 7937 - 2017
60 Min: 15033 - 2015
FM: 3:01:253 - 2017

Dangerscouse
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Re: A Question on Stroke Rate, Heart Rate and Steady State

Post by Dangerscouse » January 14th, 2018, 4:12 pm

@ Tom, yeah I'll give it a go mate. Doesn't sound like an issue. Is peak force a number?
44 Years Old; 6' 4"; 95kg; Liverpool, England 2k= 6:38; 5k= 17:29; 6k= 21:54; 10k= 36:21 30mins= 8,264m 60mins= 16,317m HM= 1:18:40; FM= 2:49:39; 50k= 3:28:18; 75k=5:29:15; 100k= 7:52:44; 12hrs = 153km

Instagram: stuwenman

JerekKruger
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Re: A Question on Stroke Rate, Heart Rate and Steady State

Post by JerekKruger » January 14th, 2018, 4:37 pm

jbhop5857 wrote:20k R20? Jeepers, that sounds like it is quite difficult. What HR zone do you stay in doing that?
So long as the pace isn't too high there's no reason it should be difficult. Low rate pieces like 30r20 are only hard because you're supposed to row very hard strokes, there's nothing inherently hard about low rate rowing otherwise.
Dangerscouse wrote:@ Tom, yeah I'll give it a go mate. Doesn't sound like an issue. Is peak force a number?
Tis indeed, measured in kilograms.
Tom | 33 | 6'6" | 93kg

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Re: A Question on Stroke Rate, Heart Rate and Steady State

Post by Dangerscouse » January 15th, 2018, 4:58 am

@ Tom probably not much use to you but my 30min TT today had a 48kg average peak force. No idea if that is good, bad or in between.

I'm still planning on doing a 10 mile session on Wednesday so I'll report on that one too
44 Years Old; 6' 4"; 95kg; Liverpool, England 2k= 6:38; 5k= 17:29; 6k= 21:54; 10k= 36:21 30mins= 8,264m 60mins= 16,317m HM= 1:18:40; FM= 2:49:39; 50k= 3:28:18; 75k=5:29:15; 100k= 7:52:44; 12hrs = 153km

Instagram: stuwenman

JerekKruger
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Re: A Question on Stroke Rate, Heart Rate and Steady State

Post by JerekKruger » January 15th, 2018, 5:04 am

Dangerscouse wrote:@ Tom probably not much use to you but my 30min TT today had a 48kg average peak force. No idea if that is good, bad or in between.
Thanks for checking for me. There are two options on ErgData: average force and peak force. Not sure which you picked, though I'll row a bit with my average force showing today to get an idea what mine is.

As for whether it's good or bad I don't think it's either really. Rowing fast is what actually matters and I'd say you row pretty fast. I am just interested in seeing the difference between us since we row quite differently in terms of stroke rate.
Tom | 33 | 6'6" | 93kg

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Dangerscouse
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Re: A Question on Stroke Rate, Heart Rate and Steady State

Post by Dangerscouse » January 15th, 2018, 7:48 am

Ok mate. I think it was average as I did see a 51 in there a few times when I glanced down.
44 Years Old; 6' 4"; 95kg; Liverpool, England 2k= 6:38; 5k= 17:29; 6k= 21:54; 10k= 36:21 30mins= 8,264m 60mins= 16,317m HM= 1:18:40; FM= 2:49:39; 50k= 3:28:18; 75k=5:29:15; 100k= 7:52:44; 12hrs = 153km

Instagram: stuwenman

JerekKruger
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Re: A Question on Stroke Rate, Heart Rate and Steady State

Post by JerekKruger » January 15th, 2018, 8:29 am

Dangerscouse wrote:Ok mate. I think it was average as I did see a 51 in there a few times when I glanced down.
As part of my warm-up today I rowed for a bit at 1:49 at 24 strokes per minute. My average force was around 58kg. Even when comparing average rather than peak you can see the difference when rowing at roughly the same pace but different stroke rates.

Given we have relatively similar dimensions I think I ought to be able to get used to a softer stroke that I can rate up higher. Out of interest Stu, when you do longer pieces (say 60 minutes or longer) what sort of split and rate do you row at?
Tom | 33 | 6'6" | 93kg

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Dangerscouse
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Re: A Question on Stroke Rate, Heart Rate and Steady State

Post by Dangerscouse » January 15th, 2018, 9:15 am

Could that be due to df? I think it was only 115 today as I wasn't quite feeling up for the heavier pull. I did notice it was lower force when I rowed faster too; dropping to 44 I saw once or twice but I was only glancing at it

For the longer sessions it's a real mixed bag. It always used to be 27/28 but now I'm trying to go at 23/25 but it can be at 27/28 too. Pace is between 1:56 & 1:58 for a HM and about 1:59 /2:00 for anything up to FM but that will include a couple of very brief stops for stretch and sweets etc so the average is skewed a bit for FM; I never stop for a HM.
44 Years Old; 6' 4"; 95kg; Liverpool, England 2k= 6:38; 5k= 17:29; 6k= 21:54; 10k= 36:21 30mins= 8,264m 60mins= 16,317m HM= 1:18:40; FM= 2:49:39; 50k= 3:28:18; 75k=5:29:15; 100k= 7:52:44; 12hrs = 153km

Instagram: stuwenman

JerekKruger
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Re: A Question on Stroke Rate, Heart Rate and Steady State

Post by JerekKruger » January 15th, 2018, 9:25 am

Dangerscouse wrote:Could that be due to df? I think it was only 115 today as I wasn't quite feeling up for the heavier pull. I did notice it was lower force when I rowed faster too; dropping to 44 I saw once or twice but I was only glancing at it
It could be, I can't say I understand the physics of drag factor entirely so it's hard for me to say. Note that having a lower average force than me for this isn't a bad thing at all. Like I said earlier, split is what really matters, and when it comes down to it you have lower splits than me across the board.
For the longer sessions it's a real mixed bag. It always used to be 27/28 but now I'm trying to go at 23/25 but it can be at 27/28 too. Pace is between 1:56 & 1:58 for a HM and about 1:59 /2:00 for anything up to FM but that will include a couple of very brief stops for stretch and sweets etc so the average is skewed a bit for FM; I never stop for a HM.
Is that the sort of speed you were rowing your long rows at in the run up to your 12 hours? I thought you were going slower than that. Damn that's fast.
Tom | 33 | 6'6" | 93kg

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Re: A Question on Stroke Rate, Heart Rate and Steady State

Post by Dangerscouse » January 15th, 2018, 11:10 am

It was a bit slower for the really long sessions; it was 2:06 for 85k but a few stops made it look slower. Anything up to 65k was at 2:00 / 2:02, above that I slowed it down a bit.

Even on my 12hr it was 2:16 pace but I know with hindsight I could have pushed it to 2:13 / 2:12 but I was terrified of not finishing so I was sensible for once. I had an email chat with an ultra runner who has done all sorts of ultra challenges across running, bikes, erg and he said he did his 100k at 2:18 and really struggled from 80km onwards. That planted a seed of doubt in my head so if I do it again, which I may do, I'll make sure to not hold back so much.

I'm far more suited to the longer distances. Sprints are something that I really need to work on.
44 Years Old; 6' 4"; 95kg; Liverpool, England 2k= 6:38; 5k= 17:29; 6k= 21:54; 10k= 36:21 30mins= 8,264m 60mins= 16,317m HM= 1:18:40; FM= 2:49:39; 50k= 3:28:18; 75k=5:29:15; 100k= 7:52:44; 12hrs = 153km

Instagram: stuwenman

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Re: A Question on Stroke Rate, Heart Rate and Steady State

Post by hjs » January 15th, 2018, 11:21 am

Dangerscouse wrote:Could that be due to df? I think it was only 115 today as I wasn't quite feeling up for the heavier pull. I did notice it was lower force when I rowed faster too; dropping to 44 I saw once or twice but I was only glancing at it

For the longer sessions it's a real mixed bag. It always used to be 27/28 but now I'm trying to go at 23/25 but it can be at 27/28 too. Pace is between 1:56 & 1:58 for a HM and about 1:59 /2:00 for anything up to FM but that will include a couple of very brief stops for stretch and sweets etc so the average is skewed a bit for FM; I never stop for a HM.
Pace, strokerate and strokelenght not drag make peakforce.
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Re: A Question on Stroke Rate, Heart Rate and Steady State

Post by bisqeet » January 15th, 2018, 11:22 am

Dangerscouse wrote:It was a bit slower for the really long sessions; it was 2:06 for 85k but a few stops made it look slower. Anything up to 65k was at 2:00 / 2:02, above that I slowed it down a bit.

Even on my 12hr it was 2:16 pace but I know with hindsight I could have pushed it to 2:13 / 2:12 but I was terrified of not finishing so I was sensible for once. I had an email chat with an ultra runner who has done all sorts of ultra challenges across running, bikes, erg and he said he did his 100k at 2:18 and really struggled from 80km onwards. That planted a seed of doubt in my head so if I do it again, which I may do, I'll make sure to not hold back so much.

I'm far more suited to the longer distances. Sprints are something that I really need to work on.
you do all your training sessions that fast ?

i think theres a certain pace/ stroke that feels good and others feel weird.
marathon pace (TT) is about R22 1:58 for me - not saying it feels easy, but its not too uncomfortable.
Steady state is slower R18 ~ 2:07 (HR ~140). anything slower feels "weak" - if im trying to go slower it usually ends up as a r12/14 or so - not something you want to do for a long time, very boring. Have a few problems if i'm not checking the pace (watching netflix usually) - pace might go to 2:05 before i realise it.
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