Training for 2k < 06:30min

General discussion on Training. How to get better on your erg, how to use your erg to get better at another sport, or anything else about improving your abilities.
MartinSH4321
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Training for 2k < 06:30min

Post by MartinSH4321 » October 11th, 2018, 2:20 am

Hello!

I started rowing about 4 months ago and I'm really enthusiastic. As my background is weight training I'm pretty satisfied with my performance at short trainings (100-500m) but my main goal is to get better at 2k (also 5k- 1 hour), a time below 6:30 would be great.
Within this 4 months my 2k-time dropped from arounf 07:15 to 06:57. My PB is about 1 month ago and my preparation wasn't good (hard training the day before, bad hydration), so I think I'm able to row around 6:50 by now. I know, there's a big difference between 6:50 and 6:30, but in the long run I think it's possible.
I have done a lot of research (internet) to develop my training plan, so here is is:

5 Trainings per week rowing + 1 weight training (only chest and shoulders)
My max HR ist about 172

6 Weeks:
Day 1: 60min, HR around 130, 20-22 SPM
Day 2: Interval: 5x500m at 1:40 (last one max)/1:30 rest, 26-28 SPM (+warm up and cool down 10min)
Day 3: 30min, HR around 130, 20-22 SPM
Day 4: Interval: 3x1000m at 3:30 (last one max)/2min rest, 26-28 SPM (+warm up and cool down 10min)
Day 5: 5.000m, HR 150-155
Day 6+7: no training
My plan is to go faster at the intervals when I'm 2-3sek faster at the last interval.

4 Weeks:
In this 4 weeks I replace my interval sessions to tabata
8x20sek at around 500 watt / 10sek rest (small wattage raise per week)
I have done tabata for 5 weeks (3 weeks ago) and my power increased from 440 Watt to 490 Watt, so I think it's really effective (and really hard :-)

As there are a lot of experienced rowers at this forum I would be pleased for some good advice or feedback concerning my training plan.

Thanks, Martin
Martin, 35, from Austria
186cm / 101Kg (6ft1/223lb)
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started rowing in June 2018

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Gammmmo
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Re: Training for 2k < 06:30min

Post by Gammmmo » October 11th, 2018, 12:08 pm

I'd say someone of your age and stature should be fairly assured of achieving this if you apply yourself. 2 days off though? You'd be better off having one off or do 3 days on 1 day off. Most people tend to lose their feel for the erg with 2 days off...same with lots of endurance sports.
46M, 5'11" 75kg (+10!), ex bike time trialler.
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Targets: 36:59(10K), >8200m for 30mins, 6:44(2K), 3:12(1K), 1:27(500m), 350m+ (1min)

Erg on!

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hjs
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Re: Training for 2k < 06:30min

Post by hjs » October 11th, 2018, 12:16 pm

Its your endurance that indeed needs work. Would limit your speedwork at first, you need quality meters, volume of your speedwork is also low, should be a bit more.

Re hf, read a bit more about that, it looks like your hf cap is very low, those sessions could end up very soft.
For my training see twitter @Hjsrowing

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Re: Training for 2k < 06:30min

Post by mitchel674 » October 11th, 2018, 12:58 pm

hjs wrote:
October 11th, 2018, 12:16 pm
Its your endurance that indeed needs work. Would limit your speedwork at first, you need quality meters, volume of your speedwork is also low, should be a bit more.

Re hf, read a bit more about that, it looks like your hf cap is very low, those sessions could end up very soft.
I have to agree. The training you spell out would likely be less than 30km/week. You may need some longer rows to build your endurance. Even your interval days are light on the meters. Try at least 10x500m, 5x1000m, and 4x1500m.
53yo male, 6ft, 162lbs

Mark E
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Re: Training for 2k < 06:30min

Post by Mark E » October 11th, 2018, 3:26 pm

I pulled just under 6:30 a couple of times as a lightweight ... but that was a very long time ago. I'm not in that ballpark at the moment, but have made good progress since returning to rowing a few months ago.

For me, the program you've put forward looks pretty solid, a little light on volume, but sorely lacking in variety. I'd strongly advise against doing the same workouts week-in and week-out in search of a particular erg score.

As an alternative, you could dedicate Tuesdays, for instance, to some form of high-intensity short intervals. Row long and easy on Wednesdays, medium-length tempo sessions on Thursdays, and et cetera until you've filled out a training week (including a rest day or two). That approach lets you vary the workouts while still aiming for a specific training effect.

I really like the training aspect of endurance sports -- for me running, rowing, cycling, and triathlon. I like quantifying the workouts and measuring results, but I'm not a big fan of extremely rigid approaches that attempt to get hyper specific with the training structure. The body isn't a machine, it's much more variable than that. And training also isn't a math equation, where X number of intervals at Y intensity yields Z for a result every time. If were that simple things would get massively boring.
6'0 166 lbs. 51 years old, 2K PR 6:27 (recorded a few decades ago, started OTW rowing again summer 2018)

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Re: Training for 2k < 06:30min

Post by nick rockliff » October 11th, 2018, 4:42 pm

Your aerobic training needs to be better.

Forget the interval training and do more of 60 min and 30 min sessions with the 30 min session more UT1. I'd stick to r20 for the 60 min sessions and r22/24 for the 30 min sessions.

Leave the speed work until 3 or 4 weeks before the 2K test.
Age 61 - 6' 4" - 108kg
All time PBs - 2k 6:16.4 - 5k 16:37.5 - 10k 34:35.5 - 30min 8727 - 60min 17059 - HM 74:25.9 - FM 2:43:48.8
50-59 PBs - 2k 6.24.3 - 5k 16.55.4 - 6k 20.34.2 - 10k 35.19.0 - 30min 8633 - 60min 16685 - HM 76.48.7
60-69 PBs - TBC

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Re: Training for 2k < 06:30min

Post by jamesg » October 12th, 2018, 1:32 am

Your
500m@1:24,9
really puts you on the line. With adequate endurance, tactics and a good stroke it means you can get well below 6:30.

A lot can be done in six months so you might like this for progressive training: https://indoorsportservices.co.uk/training/interactive

and the L4 work here can be very useful for endurance and the stroke itself: https://www.concept2.com/files/pdf/us/t ... nePlan.pdf

It's easier to see the L4 intentions if you translate the paces to Watts and relate these to the ratings.
77y, 188cm, 85kg, MHR 160. Last 2k (May 1018) 8.37@23

MartinSH4321
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Re: Training for 2k < 06:30min

Post by MartinSH4321 » October 12th, 2018, 2:36 am

Hello Guys,
Thanks for all the replies!

I agree that my main challenge is to increase my endurance. I thought that it's important to also train speed and lactate torerance, therefore the intervall training, but you're right, even with warmup and cooldown I would only make about 35k per week, so I have to change that.

It's also a good idea to only have 1 day off, I'll try 6 on/1 off, if it's too much I'll try 3 on/1 off.

Re Heartrate:
As my max HR is quite low (about 172) I think HR 130 for 1 hour is OK (UT2), but you're right, for 5k it's not challenging at all. As I have to raise my total work per week I'll try 2-3 1h-trainings per week.

I thought about required changes last night, what do you think about that:
Day 1: 60min, HR around 130, 20 SPM
Day 2: Interval (switching between 10x500, 6x1000, 3x2000 (+warm up and cool down 10min)
Day 3: 60min, HR around 130, 20 SPM
Day 4: 5k, HR 150-155
Day 5: 10k (or 60min), HR around 130, 20 SPM
Day 6: 10k, HR around 145-150

That would be a total of about 60-65k per week.
After some acclimatization/adaption I hope it's possible to change little by little the 60min trainings to 20k and the 10k to 60min. In the end that would be a total of about 90k.

Do you have any experience with tabata? As I wrote in my post my power increase was huge in this 5 weeks. Of course, as I am a rowing greenhorn it is possible what my power would have increased comparably with any other training. My plan is to start a 4-week-tabata cycle in 6-8 weeks from now, replacing my Training Days 2 and 6.

Again, thanks for all your helpful advices!
Martin, 35, from Austria
186cm / 101Kg (6ft1/223lb)
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started rowing in June 2018

MartinSH4321
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Re: Training for 2k < 06:30min

Post by MartinSH4321 » October 12th, 2018, 3:21 am

Mark E wrote:
October 11th, 2018, 3:26 pm
I pulled just under 6:30 a couple of times as a lightweight ... but that was a very long time ago. I'm not in that ballpark at the moment, but have made good progress since returning to rowing a few months ago.

For me, the program you've put forward looks pretty solid, a little light on volume, but sorely lacking in variety. I'd strongly advise against doing the same workouts week-in and week-out in search of a particular erg score.

As an alternative, you could dedicate Tuesdays, for instance, to some form of high-intensity short intervals. Row long and easy on Wednesdays, medium-length tempo sessions on Thursdays, and et cetera until you've filled out a training week (including a rest day or two). That approach lets you vary the workouts while still aiming for a specific training effect.

I really like the training aspect of endurance sports -- for me running, rowing, cycling, and triathlon. I like quantifying the workouts and measuring results, but I'm not a big fan of extremely rigid approaches that attempt to get hyper specific with the training structure. The body isn't a machine, it's much more variable than that. And training also isn't a math equation, where X number of intervals at Y intensity yields Z for a result every time. If were that simple things would get massively boring.
You're right, we are no machines :-)
But for me it is easier to work with a relativly strict plan. I have a full-time job and family, so I'm often limited with training time. It's also much easier to tell my wife "today I have to row 1h according to my plan". Without plan I frequently hear things like "can't you train a bit faster/shorter" which normally means "1h is too long, but 20min is OK, just push harder" :-)
As I am a greenhorn in rowing I'm sure I'll have to adept my plan from time to time.
Martin, 35, from Austria
186cm / 101Kg (6ft1/223lb)
Image
started rowing in June 2018

ItalianRower
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Re: Training for 2k < 06:30min

Post by ItalianRower » October 12th, 2018, 5:09 am

MartinSH4321 wrote:
October 12th, 2018, 2:36 am
Hello Guys,
Thanks for all the replies!

I agree that my main challenge is to increase my endurance. I thought that it's important to also train speed and lactate torerance, therefore the intervall training, but you're right, even with warmup and cooldown I would only make about 35k per week, so I have to change that.

It's also a good idea to only have 1 day off, I'll try 6 on/1 off, if it's too much I'll try 3 on/1 off.

Re Heartrate:
As my max HR is quite low (about 172) I think HR 130 for 1 hour is OK (UT2), but you're right, for 5k it's not challenging at all. As I have to raise my total work per week I'll try 2-3 1h-trainings per week.

I thought about required changes last night, what do you think about that:
Day 1: 60min, HR around 130, 20 SPM
Day 2: Interval (switching between 10x500, 6x1000, 3x2000 (+warm up and cool down 10min)
Day 3: 60min, HR around 130, 20 SPM
Day 4: 5k, HR 150-155
Day 5: 10k (or 60min), HR around 130, 20 SPM
Day 6: 10k, HR around 145-150

That would be a total of about 60-65k per week.
After some acclimatization/adaption I hope it's possible to change little by little the 60min trainings to 20k and the 10k to 60min. In the end that would be a total of about 90k.

Do you have any experience with tabata? As I wrote in my post my power increase was huge in this 5 weeks. Of course, as I am a rowing greenhorn it is possible what my power would have increased comparably with any other training. My plan is to start a 4-week-tabata cycle in 6-8 weeks from now, replacing my Training Days 2 and 6.

Again, thanks for all your helpful advices!
That looks decent, but I'd say work on technique really hard (non-on the water rowers usually struggle with this)
And play with the drag factor to see what suits you, also I think that adding maybe a Ut1 interval would be more beneficial, so that instead of doing 5k at a higher hr I'd say do 3-4x3000m with 3' rest rate 20 maximal output and continue with the same rate for 4 weeks, then switch to rate 22 same rest for another 3 weeks and then 24 with maybe 4-5' rest. When I pulled 6:30 I could hold 1:51 for the 20's 1:49 for the 22's and 1:47 for the 24's. You could also mix it up on the 2k intervals(maybe starting from rate 20 up to 28).
Good luck!

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Re: Training for 2k < 06:30min

Post by Andrew Shuck » October 12th, 2018, 6:29 am

Hi Martin, why not try the Pete Plan.?
I like the variety and feed back i get.Seeing results week in week out is good motivation.
This season i've gone from 07:05.0 down to 6:22.5 in around 18-19 weeks.
The pp has also helped p.b on 5k,Hm and Marathon.
Just a thought.
You can't polish a turd but you can sprinkle glitter on it.

MartinSH4321
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Re: Training for 2k < 06:30min

Post by MartinSH4321 » October 12th, 2018, 7:11 am

ItalianRower wrote:
October 12th, 2018, 5:09 am
That looks decent, but I'd say work on technique really hard (non-on the water rowers usually struggle with this)
And play with the drag factor to see what suits you, also I think that adding maybe a Ut1 interval would be more beneficial, so that instead of doing 5k at a higher hr I'd say do 3-4x3000m with 3' rest rate 20 maximal output and continue with the same rate for 4 weeks, then switch to rate 22 same rest for another 3 weeks and then 24 with maybe 4-5' rest. When I pulled 6:30 I could hold 1:51 for the 20's 1:49 for the 22's and 1:47 for the 24's. You could also mix it up on the 2k intervals(maybe starting from rate 20 up to 28).
Good luck!
Hi, when I started rowing I worked a lot on technique, but you're right, it's really important and I'll pay attention to that.
I really have troubles doing so long intervals, so I'll stay to 5k, maybe I'll give there long intervals a try in future :-)
I noticed that my drag factor was too high at the beginning, I had 150-160 for longer distances (2k+). Now I'm at 140 and it feels good. For 500m/1min I'm at 180-190 (not at intervals) and 100m at 210.
I just started working with different SPM, it's a good idea to try this at 2k intervals, thanks!
Martin, 35, from Austria
186cm / 101Kg (6ft1/223lb)
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started rowing in June 2018

MartinSH4321
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Re: Training for 2k < 06:30min

Post by MartinSH4321 » October 12th, 2018, 7:27 am

Andrew Shuck wrote:
October 12th, 2018, 6:29 am
Hi Martin, why not try the Pete Plan.?
I like the variety and feed back i get.Seeing results week in week out is good motivation.
This season i've gone from 07:05.0 down to 6:22.5 in around 18-19 weeks.
The pp has also helped p.b on 5k,Hm and Marathon.
Just a thought.
Hi Andrew,
wow, your gains are amazing, especially in such short time! Hopefully I can do so as well :-)
The Pete Plan seems really good and I think my plan has a lot in common with PP (3 long trainings, Interval, 1 longer hard training), but 2 things do not fit to myself (I think)
- the rest times between intervals are to long for me
- I have (mental) troubles doing long intervals
As I have enough power for short distances and big aerobic deficits I think these adaptions are good for me. I'll give my plan a try and will propably adapt it in future.
Martin, 35, from Austria
186cm / 101Kg (6ft1/223lb)
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started rowing in June 2018

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Gammmmo
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Re: Training for 2k < 06:30min

Post by Gammmmo » October 12th, 2018, 8:11 am

I strongly suspect if you go from 7:05 to 6:22, then any "plan" (even just erging more with no structure) would've got you most of the way there. Just sayin'...
46M, 5'11" 75kg (+10!), ex bike time trialler.
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Targets: 36:59(10K), >8200m for 30mins, 6:44(2K), 3:12(1K), 1:27(500m), 350m+ (1min)

Erg on!

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Re: Training for 2k < 06:30min

Post by MartinSH4321 » October 12th, 2018, 8:23 am

jamesg wrote:
October 12th, 2018, 1:32 am
Your
500m@1:24,9
really puts you on the line. With adequate endurance, tactics and a good stroke it means you can get well below 6:30.

A lot can be done in six months so you might like this for progressive training: https://indoorsportservices.co.uk/training/interactive

and the L4 work here can be very useful for endurance and the stroke itself: https://www.concept2.com/files/pdf/us/t ... nePlan.pdf

It's easier to see the L4 intentions if you translate the paces to Watts and relate these to the ratings.
Thanks for the links! I read about the wolverine plan before and I think my plan (especially my new one) has a lot in common with it. As my main deficit is my aerobic capacity I'll do a lot of L4 (UT2) and less intervals as my power output on short distances is sufficient. After my aerobic capacity improved (a lot :-) ) I'll start with more (long distance) intervals.
Martin, 35, from Austria
186cm / 101Kg (6ft1/223lb)
Image
started rowing in June 2018

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