HELP: Training program from a grappler

General discussion on Training. How to get better on your erg, how to use your erg to get better at another sport, or anything else about improving your abilities.
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jost
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HELP: Training program from a grappler

Post by jost » January 10th, 2019, 7:06 pm

Hi guys,

Need some advice on how to row for grappling ( brazilian jiu jitsu).

My background:
50 years old
Rowing casually for 8 years and suck at it.
Rowing a lot more now - trying 5 times a week.

In the past I have only done 2K sprints, period.
Recently added 4K rows at what I consider a moderate pace. ( youre gonna laugh)

Im training for jiu jitsu competition matches which are insanely high intensity, thus my focus on sprint training.
I started looking into rowing programs and I already use RowPro for fun. I love stats.

I just started looking at row training programs and was a bit shocked. Seems they put a lot of long cardio based rowing in at first to build a strong base and then sprints go on top.

So I calculated what a heart rate zone 3 would be for me, and I have to admit, I laughed. There is just no way I can row that slow. Grappling is all anaerobic. Is this even a good idea? Would die of boredom.

My longer "slow" rows, of 4000M, I row at an average heart rate that is 85% of my max. I consider that my natural "cruise" speed :lol: I plan to use 6000M as my base.

At my age, a match in jiu jitsu is 6 minutes, and will likely be pushing 80-100% of max heart rate the entire time.


How would you train for this? Are typical row programs a good idea? Or should I focus more on HIIT/Tabata style training due to all the explosiveness?

My 2K time is 8:14. Pretty bad. Im a 158lb light weight.
The 50th percentile on the concept2 ranking site is: 7:45.8
It would be amazing to get there.

edinborogh
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Re: HELP: Training program from a grappler

Post by edinborogh » January 10th, 2019, 11:50 pm

best training would be to K.O your opponent in less then six minutes.
this will enable you to row at your pleasure as you did so far.

Joking aside,
i personally believe that HIIT sessions will give you the best value for your time.
sprints like 30 on 30 off, or 60 on 60 off will really be good.
I would imagine that your "fight" or "round" of 6 minutes could be treated as a "rowing 2K" for example. so another option could be the Pete plan and see what's giving you a higher value over time.

jamesg
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Re: HELP: Training program from a grappler

Post by jamesg » January 11th, 2019, 2:23 am

At my age, a match in jiu jitsu is 6 minutes, and will likely be pushing 80-100% of max heart rate the entire time.
The same as in a 2k race on the erg, for some. Six minutes is no sprint, so you need endurance anyway. The erg is ideal for this, since all strokes are explosive, but can be trained at low rating.

Your explosive action in fighting will not be one every second; in training for rowing we can get away with one explosive action every 3 seconds, which is plenty for most. Just set the drag low and pull each single stroke long, hard and fast, with plenty of recovery time. You can pull as hard as you like, the erg is unlikely to break down.

For how it's done, see https://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/ ... que-videos

For complete 2k schedules, see https://indoorsportservices.co.uk/training/interactive
78y, 188cm, 85kg, MHR 160. Last 2k (May 1018) 8.37@23

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hjs
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Re: HELP: Training program from a grappler

Post by hjs » January 11th, 2019, 4:39 am

You really need to work you fitness, so much room to gain there.
No sport 6 min is anaerobe, everything above 30/45 seconds becomes aerobic rapidly. You need fitness and specific strenght. Rowing is not your mainsport, its cross training for you. Don,t know how often you fight etc, but on the rower you first very much should build a base. And think not the 2k, but much more sprinting, 500/1min, 100m is important for you.

Better fitness helpes you to recover faster, during your grappling and that is what you need.
For my training see twitter @Hjsrowing

jost
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Re: HELP: Training program from a grappler

Post by jost » January 11th, 2019, 9:12 am

hjs wrote:
January 11th, 2019, 4:39 am
No sport 6 min is anaerobe, everything above 30/45 seconds becomes aerobic rapidly. Y
Is this really true? Every modern sport journal ive read seems to assert that this is mostly anaerobic. True aerobic training happens in heart rate zones 2 and 3, definitely not above 3.

I most definitely am zone 4+ all the time. So am I really doing any aerobic training at all????
Aerobic training does not seem to be defined by the *length* of the work out at all but by its intensity.

What am I missing here?

Even my longest rows of 6000M are zone 4 and above. The only time im in zone 3, is during the very first part of the row as my heart zooms up from zero to zone 4. Then I hold it steady at the top of zone 4 using my heart rate monitor.

jost
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Re: HELP: Training program from a grappler

Post by jost » January 11th, 2019, 9:20 am

So the real question is, should I really force myself to spend a lot of time in zone 2 and 3 to "build a base".

Would this really be helpful for a sport like wrestling???

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hjs
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Re: HELP: Training program from a grappler

Post by hjs » January 11th, 2019, 9:35 am

jost wrote:
January 11th, 2019, 9:12 am
hjs wrote:
January 11th, 2019, 4:39 am
No sport 6 min is anaerobe, everything above 30/45 seconds becomes aerobic rapidly. Y
Is this really true? Every modern sport journal ive read seems to assert that this is mostly anaerobic. True aerobic training happens in heart rate zones 2 and 3, definitely not above 3.

I most definitely am zone 4+ all the time. So am I really doing any aerobic training at all????
Aerobic training does not seem to be defined by the *length* of the work out at all but by its intensity.

What am I missing here?

Even my longest rows of 6000M are zone 4 and above. The only time im in zone 3, is during the very first part of the row as my heart zooms up from zero to zone 4. Then I hold it steady at the top of zone 4 using my heart rate monitor.
Fully disagree, try holding your breath for 6 min. :wink:

Your longer rows should a be easy and fully aerobe, your anaerobe work should be done in your main sport.

Your current 2k, even for a lightweight is very modest, this means your fitness and fast recovery is not good, you want your body to ge able to get as much O2 as possible to be taking in, you don,t improve that by going anaerobic.

Your sport is going on and off with very short rest inbetween, in those short rest you want to recover as much as possible, for that you need aerobic fitness.

2k is not like your sport, its continues effort for the duration, very different. Thats why
I said a 500m much more is relevant, or shorter, for your sport. And next to that interval work, with short rest, think 1 min on/off.

At the moment almost all your training is anaerobe and that shows. Really split that up, on the one hand pure aerobe training and the other pure power/aerobe. You now don,t do both and that is not serving your sport.
For my training see twitter @Hjsrowing

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hjs
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Re: HELP: Training program from a grappler

Post by hjs » January 11th, 2019, 9:42 am

jost wrote:
January 11th, 2019, 9:20 am
So the real question is, should I really force myself to spend a lot of time in zone 2 and 3 to "build a base".

Would this really be helpful for a sport like wrestling???
So yes and slower then you think. You are doing a aerobe 6min and nonlactic anaerobe sport. You are not using fully using your lactic anaerobe system. Try running a max 400m and right after start grappling, you are fully spend and can,t do anything. Here comes your aerobe fitness in, this makes you recover faster and last longer.
For my training see twitter @Hjsrowing

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Re: HELP: Training program from a grappler

Post by G-dub » January 11th, 2019, 9:54 am

The concept associated with building aerobic conditioning to enhance recovery is pretty interesting and key. For instance in master rowing we do 1Ks, which are about 3:30” efforts there about, which isn’t long to suffer. But we also do 3-4 races in a day, which requires recovery
Glenn Walters: 5'-8" X 192 lbs. Bday 01/09/1962
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Mark E
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Re: HELP: Training program from a grappler

Post by Mark E » January 11th, 2019, 11:51 am

Consider this example too ... a one-mile footrace takes less than four minutes for an elite athlete. It's a very high-intensity effort and requires plenty of anaerobic capacity. Yet elite milers typically run 50-70 miles a week -- many do more -- and much of it at low intensity to build a strong aerobic engine. I'm a big believer in sport-specific training, so I don't think performing lots of long rowing efforts is going to be highly important to your jujitsu success. But if you're using rowing for cross training it will be worthwhile to do more than just sprint-oriented work.
6'0 170 lbs. 51 years old, 2K PR 6:27 (recorded a few decades ago, started OTW rowing again summer 2018)

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Re: HELP: Training program from a grappler

Post by jamesg » January 11th, 2019, 2:59 pm

True aerobic training happens in heart rate zones 2 and 3, definitely not above 3.
I most definitely am zone 4+ all the time. So am I really doing any aerobic training at all????
Aerobic training does not seem to be defined by the *length* of the work out at all but by its intensity.
HR zones were needed once upon a time as a proxy for intensity or power, failing anything better to control training levels. Using the AT idea, the bend in the W-HR line was the AT by definition. So at the very least, in HR theory, this bend has to be found with a step test. This lets us train within HR bands if we want to, below and above AT.

This theory says that AT can be shifted to the right right by training. So we'd have to check it periodically and adjust our bands. Our ideal, under this theory, might be to shift our AT all the way to MHR, so that there is no anaerobic zone. Maybe this is what you are seeing, so well done. It's all aerobic.


In the end, on the erg we don't need theories; we can see what we're doing directly, using Rating, Pace, Watts or some combination. It doesn't take a lot of experience to decide that we're going too fast or too slow, with that data.

Work needs supplies and waste removal; training increases the rates of both; so we can work progressively harder, longer and recover sooner.
78y, 188cm, 85kg, MHR 160. Last 2k (May 1018) 8.37@23

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