Rating and splits.

General discussion on Training. How to get better on your erg, how to use your erg to get better at another sport, or anything else about improving your abilities.
Tim huges
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Rating and splits.

Post by Tim huges » July 11th, 2019, 11:51 am

Im failing to understand the relationship between rating and splits. I understand the 2k should be well into the 30's and pushing 40...but what about a marathon and everything inbetween and either side? Is rate personal preference based on what power in the drive we can produce vs how well we can rate up. How does someone decide what rate to do in time trial or even during training.

Up to now i have just gone as hard as i think i can manage, splits and rate have very little planning. I certainly have very little idea of what i split i can hold at different rates. Although i am giving this much more thought recently. I know some rates and splits im capable of, is the rest just a matter of experience? I know what i can manage on 60min rows and i know what i can manage on 500m...but everything else is a mystery.

Where is the crossover between power and rate...for example in a 2k, what would be different about doing it at r28 but powerful strokes versus r40 with less power but many strokes. Does it depend on the rower?

I know im asking 101 questions here but some general advice and personal preferences would give me some perspective.
34yrs 6ft England
Started Jan 2019
500m 1:31.6
2k 6:41.0
10k 37:34

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hjs
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Re: Rating and splits.

Post by hjs » July 11th, 2019, 12:06 pm

Say you would run or swim, would you worry about the stride or strokerate?

Its mostly a matter of feel. Rating is often very much a matter of otw related. In a boat you have to be in sink with the crew.

For a single erger, use whatever gives you the best pace. Training is often next to fitness, also aimed at building strenght and or technique.
For my training see twitter @Hjsrowing

jamesg
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Re: Rating and splits.

Post by jamesg » July 11th, 2019, 12:39 pm

When rowing, the strokes all contain roughly the same amount of work, where work=force x length.

When learning to row, we develop a stroke that is doable as to both length and force, then use it and refine it.

Power is then proportional to work x rating. For long distances and training we use low ratings, higher for sprints and racing.

Typical ratings in training are 18 - 24, racing 30 - 40. On the erg, high ratings cause inertial power loss, so there's always a balance to be struck; not afloat, where we see ratings up to 48.

Pace is derived from power using an inverse cube law.
Last edited by jamesg on July 11th, 2019, 12:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
78y, 188cm, 87kg, MHR 155. Last 2k (24 May 19) 8.46.6@22

mitchel674
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Re: Rating and splits.

Post by mitchel674 » July 11th, 2019, 12:43 pm

hjs wrote:
July 11th, 2019, 12:06 pm
For a single erger, use whatever gives you the best pace. /quote]



I think this line from Henry hits home. It's really whatever rate gives you your best split time that you can sustain over the length of the piece.

I've seen some folks here do half marathons at 30spm with remarkable split times. This seems like a crazy rate for me over 90 minutes, but it does work for some people.
54yo male, 6ft, 162lbs

Tim huges
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Re: Rating and splits.

Post by Tim huges » July 11th, 2019, 12:59 pm

Seems ive misunderstood the importance of rating for a single erg user...makes perfect sense when it comes to a boat and keeping timings with others.

Im just getting back into sprint work as i said on another post, but when i was doing lots of short intervals rating up wasnt much of an issue...neither has long pieces at low ratings with lots of power. Not that i think im exceptional at either end of the spectrum...but it has left me a little confused where to place myself.
34yrs 6ft England
Started Jan 2019
500m 1:31.6
2k 6:41.0
10k 37:34

Tim huges
500m Poster
Posts: 52
Joined: July 7th, 2019, 5:24 am

Re: Rating and splits.

Post by Tim huges » July 11th, 2019, 1:03 pm

jamesg wrote:
July 11th, 2019, 12:39 pm
When rowing, the strokes all contain roughly the same amount of work, where work=force x length.

When learning to row, we develop a stroke that is doable as to both length and force, then use it and refine it.

Power is then proportional to work x rating. For long distances and training we use low ratings, higher for sprints and racing.

Typical ratings in training are 18 - 24, racing 30 - 40. On the erg, high ratings cause inertial power loss, so there's always a balance to be struck; not afloat, where we see ratings up to 48.

Pace is derived from power using an inverse cube law.
So would it be correct to go somewhere in the middle and then fine tune...24/26 @ 1:50 for a 5k perhaps? Add or subtract power or rate if needed or i feel like i can do more?
34yrs 6ft England
Started Jan 2019
500m 1:31.6
2k 6:41.0
10k 37:34

Tim huges
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Posts: 52
Joined: July 7th, 2019, 5:24 am

Re: Rating and splits.

Post by Tim huges » July 11th, 2019, 1:33 pm

mitchel674 wrote:
July 11th, 2019, 12:43 pm
hjs wrote:
July 11th, 2019, 12:06 pm
For a single erger, use whatever gives you the best pace. /quote]



I think this line from Henry hits home. It's really whatever rate gives you your best split time that you can sustain over the length of the piece.

I've seen some folks here do half marathons at 30spm with remarkable split times. This seems like a crazy rate for me over 90 minutes, but it does work for some people.
WOW! Thats insane. I done 55min today between 20 and around 23...30 sounds alot. Is that becuase they back off the power in their drive and make up for it with amount rather than "powerstrokes"...or not neccessarily?
34yrs 6ft England
Started Jan 2019
500m 1:31.6
2k 6:41.0
10k 37:34

mitchel674
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Re: Rating and splits.

Post by mitchel674 » July 11th, 2019, 2:35 pm

61 year old Rod on this forum is a beast and a great example of rating up even for long pieces. Look at this result of his from earlier this year.
60 minutes Time Trial

Pace...................1:54.1
Metres................15762
DF......................105
SPM...................33
Yes, that's 33spm for one hour. I can't fathom that rate for that amount of time.
54yo male, 6ft, 162lbs

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Anth_F
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Re: Rating and splits.

Post by Anth_F » July 11th, 2019, 2:51 pm

Some can handle those rates ok and settle. Keep in mind, at that rate, the strokes are much softer than what they'd need to be to hold that kinda pace rowing in the low r20's. Then it would be a different session entirely, and much much harder. But you'll burn up lots of energy flying back n forth at those rates.
42yo male 5'10 78kg (Rowing since june 9th 2016) PB's 5k 19:22

My goals are simply to keep fit/get fitter and continue to enjoy rowing on the C2 :)

https://log.concept2.com/log

Dangerscouse
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Re: Rating and splits.

Post by Dangerscouse » July 11th, 2019, 3:12 pm

Rating is very subjective but I'd recommend mastering both low and high rates. My 60 mins and HM PBs were both done at r28/29 but I regularly do r18-20 long distance sessions.
45 HWT; 6' 4"; Liverpool 1k= 3:09; 2k= 6:36; 5k= 17:27; 6k= 21:23; 10k= 36:21 30mins= 8,356m 60mins= 16,317m HM= 1:18:40; FM= 2:49:39; 50k= 3:28:18; 100k= 7:52:44; 12hrs = 153km

"You reap what you Row"

Instagram: stuwenman

jamesg
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Re: Rating and splits.

Post by jamesg » July 11th, 2019, 3:22 pm

Tim huges wrote:
July 11th, 2019, 1:03 pm
So would it be correct to go somewhere in the middle and then fine tune...24/26 @ 1:50 for a 5k perhaps? Add or subtract power or rate if needed or i feel like i can do more?
As a TT yes, with level as to fitness and experience. Maybe start slowish, even after a good warm-up, then harden.

For endurance you'll need more mileage with good strokes.
78y, 188cm, 87kg, MHR 155. Last 2k (24 May 19) 8.46.6@22

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jimmyshand
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Re: Rating and splits.

Post by jimmyshand » July 11th, 2019, 4:21 pm

At the moment I'm trying to increase my rating a bit but here are my ratings on some PBs, for reference

1k - 33
2k - 31
5k - 24
30m - 24
10k - 23
60m - 22
HM - 22.

I used to rate higher but have slowed without meaning to so am working on increasing it a bit.
42 years old - 97kg/214lbs - 198cm/6'6" - I live in England

PBs -
1k 3:15.6 | 2k 6:51.4 | 5k 18:25.2 | 30min 8,016m | 10k 37:53.6 | 60min 15,254m | HM 1:25:38.4

Rowing since March 2017. Real name is Alasdair.

KeithT
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Re: Rating and splits.

Post by KeithT » July 12th, 2019, 9:48 am

This doesn't look too bad to me and I follow a same pattern but rate a little higher for the 1K and 5K compared to you but very similar for the longer rows. I can keep decent pace at those rates without giving a ton of pressure. As long as you are comfortable there I wouldn't change too much other than 1K - can get that higher.
51 yo, 6'3" 205#
PBs (all since turning 50):
1 min - 373m, 500m - 1:23.2, 1K - 2:59.8, 4 min - 1265m, 2K - 6:29.9, 5K - 17:27, 30 min - 8277m, 10K - 36:30, 60 min - 16036, HM - 1:20:22

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jimmyshand
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Re: Rating and splits.

Post by jimmyshand » July 12th, 2019, 11:04 am

Thanks Keith, good to know it's not just me. I'm doing some more 500s trying to rate up and get used to it so will keep at it.
42 years old - 97kg/214lbs - 198cm/6'6" - I live in England

PBs -
1k 3:15.6 | 2k 6:51.4 | 5k 18:25.2 | 30min 8,016m | 10k 37:53.6 | 60min 15,254m | HM 1:25:38.4

Rowing since March 2017. Real name is Alasdair.

Dangerscouse
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Location: Liverpool, England

Re: Rating and splits.

Post by Dangerscouse » July 12th, 2019, 11:39 am

KeithT wrote:
July 12th, 2019, 9:48 am
This doesn't look too bad to me and I follow a same pattern but rate a little higher for the 1K and 5K compared to you but very similar for the longer rows. I can keep decent pace at those rates without giving a ton of pressure. As long as you are comfortable there I wouldn't change too much other than 1K - can get that higher.
jimmyshand wrote:
July 12th, 2019, 11:04 am
Thanks Keith, good to know it's not just me. I'm doing some more 500s trying to rate up and get used to it so will keep at it.
Yep. All that really matters is that you maximise your potential for your fastest time, no matter what rate it is
45 HWT; 6' 4"; Liverpool 1k= 3:09; 2k= 6:36; 5k= 17:27; 6k= 21:23; 10k= 36:21 30mins= 8,356m 60mins= 16,317m HM= 1:18:40; FM= 2:49:39; 50k= 3:28:18; 100k= 7:52:44; 12hrs = 153km

"You reap what you Row"

Instagram: stuwenman

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