24 week Pete Plan

General discussion on Training. How to get better on your erg, how to use your erg to get better at another sport, or anything else about improving your abilities.
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jackarabit
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Re: 24 week Pete Plan

Post by jackarabit » January 13th, 2020, 4:27 pm

Stats line in your siggy says you’re ready for BPP. The cautions about conservative rate of pace improvement per week still apply but doubt you’ll have much trouble with increases in steady state volume. Do the work and accept the results. Force the results and recovery won’t be sufficient to enable further work. Physiological adaptation necessary to support increased workload happens while you rest.
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Kris7900
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Re: 24 week Pete Plan

Post by Kris7900 » January 13th, 2020, 5:06 pm

dknickerbocker wrote:
January 13th, 2020, 2:55 pm
okay got it, cool

if general fitness is your goal, then yes of course, no need to follow a plan. however, you might still want to follow one anyway, because it improves buy-in, promotes discipline, and completion of a plan is specific and measurable, whereas "increase fitness" isn't, at least not to the same extent. Completing the plan could be a specific goal in furtherance of the larger goal of increased fitness.

of course that's not necessary though, yo could always just have a goal like "row three times a week" or "row four times a week" or whatever.

in terms of being ready to do it, i agree if you can complete 5000 comfortably you generally are ready. even better if you can complete 5K comfortably AND are currently rowing at least 3 or 4 times a week. That way it won't be a big step up in volume for you to start on the plan. You can always do the plan starting from 0, but I find it's much more enjoyable to do structured training when you've been active vs. sedentary.

So to answer your question of how to get ready, that's really all you need to do, no need for a specific plan. Just get to the point where you're doing reasonable rows (20 or 30 minutes) 3 or 4 times a week, and are able to row 5k comfortably. If you're not there yet, concept2 i believe publishes a bunch of "workouts of the day", which might be a good way to keep it more interesting than just hopping on and hammering. Just pick one and do it! Rest a day, do it again (same workout or a different one). Rest a day, do it again. If you feel good push harder, if you feel bad go easy, or rest. Keep doing that a few weeks and in no time you'll be ready.
Cool, thanks for the info. I guess I have no idea if I can do a 5000 comfortably. I did one already, but it was the first day i had my Concept 2 so i was barely breathing...because I clearly wasn't doing it correctly. I don't really know how hard I should push or what "comfortable" means, so I'll just give it a whirl without killing myself and see how it goes

tm3
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Re: 24 week Pete Plan

Post by tm3 » January 13th, 2020, 10:35 pm

My sense is that at least part of your question is the same one that I have never found an answer for -- exactly how does one pick a starting target split time for the 5000? 2:10? 2:50? Flip a coin?

Seems like there should be some guideline, perhaps based on HR.

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max_ratcliffe
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Re: 24 week Pete Plan

Post by max_ratcliffe » January 14th, 2020, 12:09 am

tm3 wrote:
January 13th, 2020, 10:35 pm
My sense is that at least part of your question is the same one that I have never found an answer for -- exactly how does one pick a starting target split time for the 5000? 2:10? 2:50? Flip a coin?

Seems like there should be some guideline, perhaps based on HR.
You could base it on conversational pace: you would need to be able to say a few sentences during the piece (not natter away like a chat show host, but equally not have to burst out monosyllabic grunts either).

HR-wise, if you know your resting (RHR) and max heart rates (MHR), then you could aim to stay between 60% and 80% of your Heart Rate Reserve.

E.g. for an RHR of 60 and an MHR of 180, stay between 132bpm and 156 bpm (where 132 is given by 60+0.6(180-60), etc).
49yo, 82kg
PBs: 1'=328m; 500m=1:38.2; 1k=3:25:1; 2k=7:34.7; 5k=19:44; 6k=23:24; 30'=7534m; 10k=40.28; 60'=14621m; HM=1:27:46

2020 goals:
1k - sub 3:30; 30' > 7500m; 60' > 14600m; HM sub 1:29.00
2k - sub 7:15; 5k - sub 19:20; 10k - sub 40:00;

Kris7900
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Re: 24 week Pete Plan

Post by Kris7900 » January 14th, 2020, 9:49 am

tm3 wrote:
January 13th, 2020, 10:35 pm
My sense is that at least part of your question is the same one that I have never found an answer for -- exactly how does one pick a starting target split time for the 5000? 2:10? 2:50? Flip a coin?

Seems like there should be some guideline, perhaps based on HR.
100% on the money. Where to start.

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Re: 24 week Pete Plan

Post by tm3 » January 14th, 2020, 10:36 am

max_ratcliffe wrote:
January 14th, 2020, 12:09 am
tm3 wrote:
January 13th, 2020, 10:35 pm
My sense is that at least part of your question is the same one that I have never found an answer for -- exactly how does one pick a starting target split time for the 5000? 2:10? 2:50? Flip a coin?

Seems like there should be some guideline, perhaps based on HR.
You could base it on conversational pace: you would need to be able to say a few sentences during the piece (not natter away like a chat show host, but equally not have to burst out monosyllabic grunts either).

HR-wise, if you know your resting (RHR) and max heart rates (MHR), then you could aim to stay between 60% and 80% of your Heart Rate Reserve.

E.g. for an RHR of 60 and an MHR of 180, stay between 132bpm and 156 bpm (where 132 is given by 60+0.6(180-60), etc).
Thanks for posting! I arbitrarily set some target heart rates for the different sessions and have been using that as my guide, but I have no idea if my picks were "correct." Maybe "optimal" is a better term.

As nice as the PP is, IMO it fails beginners in this one aspect. It talks about not going "too hard" and the interval sessions being faster than the longer rows but not "too fast" which is good advice but someone just starting may not know how that translates into split pace -- at least, that was my experience and it sounds like the OP has the same problem.

Max, what do you recommend as far as HRR targets for the long sessions and the interval sessions? 60% for the long sessions, 80% for the intervals? And, while I'm asking, what would be the optimal stroke rates for the two sessions? I've been trying to keep my long sessions at 15 strokes per minute but based on another beginner thread here somewhere I think that may be too slow (although it seems to really encourage better form, which the PP emphasizes).

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Re: 24 week Pete Plan

Post by tm3 » January 14th, 2020, 11:05 am

Kris7900 wrote:
January 13th, 2020, 5:06 pm

Cool, thanks for the info. I guess I have no idea if I can do a 5000 comfortably. I did one already, but it was the first day i had my Concept 2 so i was barely breathing...because I clearly wasn't doing it correctly. I don't really know how hard I should push or what "comfortable" means, so I'll just give it a whirl without killing myself and see how it goes
If you can complete 5000m without it feeling really hard (ie, you are exhausted at the finish and you feel bad for the rest of the day and/or you have a lot of pain), then I would start with the PP. You could slow down your start a little by doing the 1st week program for 2 or 3 weeks in a row before proceeding into the workout progression. I like the structure of the PP and keeping a log is fun as it gives a sense of accomplishment. There is an online log at the Concept 2 site or you could use a paper log book.

If you don't have a heart rate monitor I would recommend investing in one. A heart rate monitor is analogous to a tachometer in a car ie it tells you how hard your engine is working. IMO you don't need a really fancy one with zones and GPS and bells and whistles as what you will use it for is to pace yourself and to develop a correlation with your split time (time per 500m) which will then allow you to row based on your split time and not watching your heart rate constantly. I do however recommend buying one that uses a chest strap as that type is MUCH more accurate and consistent than the kind you wear on your wrist like an Apple watch or whatever. I got a nice one made by Polar called the FT7 and it works well for this purpose. It was around $50.

You may want to pick up a pair of bicycling gloves as I had blister problems on my hands for a while.

Form is crucial and I would make it a primary focus. Read the PP instructions and watch the C2 instructional videos. There are also many good videos on you tube re rowing form, common mistakes, etc. One of my favorites on you tube is the series by Training Tall. I have also found a few good ones by Dark Horse Rowing. Form is so important that I watch videos every week and do at least a little form work every rowing session. If there is any way that you can do at least some of your form work in front of a mirror I recommend it as it makes it much easier to tell if you are doing something wrong like overextending in the catch.

Good luck! This will seem challenging at first but after about a month it starts getting more enjoyable and you will be very proud of yourself for doing it.

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Re: 24 week Pete Plan

Post by Dangerscouse » January 14th, 2020, 1:52 pm

tm3 wrote:
January 14th, 2020, 10:36 am
I've been trying to keep my long sessions at 15 strokes per minute but based on another beginner thread here somewhere I think that may be too slow (although it seems to really encourage better form, which the PP emphasizes).
15 is way too low. Any lower than 18, which is very low anyway, is notably increasing your chance of injury as there is more inertia to deal with.

For a beginner I'd recommend 20-22 for longer sessions, as 22 translates better to higher rates and 20 is a good way to balance strength and fitness potential. Too high and it will need a good base fitness, too low and it will be too much about strength.

I like doing both as mastering 18-34spm is a goal everyone should work towards in my opinion
46 HWT; 6' 4"; 1k= 3:09; 2k= 6:36; 5k= 17:24; 6k= 21:09; 10k= 35:46 30mins= 8,428m 60mins= 16,331m HM= 1:18:40; FM= 2:45:49; 50k= 3:21:14; 100k= 7:52:44; 12hrs = 153km

"You reap what you row"

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jackarabit
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Re: 24 week Pete Plan

Post by jackarabit » January 14th, 2020, 4:02 pm

A correction and apology due you, Kris. I mistook dknickerbicker’s stat line for yours, which I find doesn't exist. For Beginner PP, you will need to start where you are. If you could “barely breath” during your single 5k effort, best pace prescription would be slow enuf to allow you to breath comfortably. You may have to make a couple of attempts at BPP. Failure is an option; i got 8 weeks in and quit my first time. Whatever you do, don’t mess with PP (big boy lunch hour version) until you can get thru at least 3 mandatory sessions per week Beginner Pete.
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tm3
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Re: 24 week Pete Plan

Post by tm3 » January 14th, 2020, 5:44 pm

Dangerscouse wrote:
January 14th, 2020, 1:52 pm
tm3 wrote:
January 14th, 2020, 10:36 am
I've been trying to keep my long sessions at 15 strokes per minute but based on another beginner thread here somewhere I think that may be too slow (although it seems to really encourage better form, which the PP emphasizes).
15 is way too low. Any lower than 18, which is very low anyway, is notably increasing your chance of injury as there is more inertia to deal with.

For a beginner I'd recommend 20-22 for longer sessions, as 22 translates better to higher rates and 20 is a good way to balance strength and fitness potential. Too high and it will need a good base fitness, too low and it will be too much about strength.

I like doing both as mastering 18-34spm is a goal everyone should work towards in my opinion
Thanks for the info! I definitely don't want to increase injury risk as I have a tendency to get back pain from rowing anyway.

I'll shoot for 20-22 for the longer sessions, like the 5k, 6k, etc. Would you recommend a faster rate, say around 30spm, for the interval sessions (6x500m, 4x800m, etc.)?

Not sure where I got the 15spm but I think it was in something I saw that said that keeping the spm low while upping the split time was a good way to develop a more efficient stroke.

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Re: 24 week Pete Plan

Post by mitchel674 » January 14th, 2020, 6:02 pm

tm3 wrote:
January 14th, 2020, 5:44 pm


Not sure where I got the 15spm but I think it was in something I saw that said that keeping the spm low while upping the split time was a good way to develop a more efficient stroke.
That's true, but 15spm is very low. I started out doing the BPP long rows at 20spm. I would count the 1 second drive followed by the 2 second recovery as a way to yield a quick but strong stroke with a good recovery time. That cadence works well for the beginner. A "1" followed by a "2,3" in my head.
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dknickerbocker
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Re: 24 week Pete Plan

Post by dknickerbocker » January 14th, 2020, 6:07 pm

the beginners in the thread also could do some rowing drills at a low SPM just focusing on the elements of the stroke, get up take a drink etc, THEN sit down and do the "workout" for the day, at the appropriate SPM rating. That way you get both: a period of time to go slow and focus on technique, and also an appropriate stroke rate for the work you're doing.

That's how we did it when learning to row (freshman year lightweight rowing in college). Definitely long enough ago to not remember my PRs because they would have been written down on paper by the cox :)
Age: 36. Weight: 72kg ht: 5'10"
5K: 19:21. 10K: 41:42. 30min: 7,518

Dangerscouse
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Re: 24 week Pete Plan

Post by Dangerscouse » January 15th, 2020, 4:45 am

tm3 wrote:
January 14th, 2020, 5:44 pm

Thanks for the info! I definitely don't want to increase injury risk as I have a tendency to get back pain from rowing anyway.

I'll shoot for 20-22 for the longer sessions, like the 5k, 6k, etc. Would you recommend a faster rate, say around 30spm, for the interval sessions (6x500m, 4x800m, etc.)?

Not sure where I got the 15spm but I think it was in something I saw that said that keeping the spm low while upping the split time was a good way to develop a more efficient stroke.
I used to suffer more from back issues and when I did my first hard 30r20 I aggravated my back so be careful as you get more confidence and go harder and faster, but you do adapt to it quite quickly.

I always rate at least at r28/30 for TTs and intervals. There's a difference and a technique that needs to be learned for both styles, along with base fitness for higher rates.

Low rates are useful for really 'feeling' the technique so you can apply that to higher rates but if you're competitive, mid or higher rates are more important as you will produce faster results at these rates.
46 HWT; 6' 4"; 1k= 3:09; 2k= 6:36; 5k= 17:24; 6k= 21:09; 10k= 35:46 30mins= 8,428m 60mins= 16,331m HM= 1:18:40; FM= 2:45:49; 50k= 3:21:14; 100k= 7:52:44; 12hrs = 153km

"You reap what you row"

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Re: 24 week Pete Plan

Post by Kris7900 » January 19th, 2020, 3:15 pm

Thanks everyone. I ended up just starting to to the Concept 2 workouts of the day. It still helps me go in with a plan/goal for my workout and I get a sense of accomplishment after finishing. I'm going for 3-4 a week switching between the short and medium ones until I am in better shape and feel like I can push it more.

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Re: 24 week Pete Plan

Post by G-dub » January 19th, 2020, 6:56 pm

As far as “what pace”, do cycling or running plans prescribe pace to beginners? My recollection is that you just go out and do it based on how you feel. I know that comes across smart ass, but getting into rowing is the same. Feel it out. You will know when you are going too hard. And going “not to hard” is OK too. Adjust next time. Biggest thing I’d think about is a good leg drive and an easy recovery. And using a low ish drag so you put the stroke in your legs and learn a quick drive. It’s also easier on the body. You can always increase drag after you get more rowing fit. Good luck! Think about the long haul
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