Ideal km target for junior rower

General discussion on Training. How to get better on your erg, how to use your erg to get better at another sport, or anything else about improving your abilities.
CharlieV453
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Posts: 39
Joined: July 16th, 2019, 2:58 pm

Re: Ideal km target for junior rower

Post by CharlieV453 » February 22nd, 2021, 9:56 am

Dangerscouse wrote:
February 22nd, 2021, 8:21 am
CharlieV453 wrote:
February 22nd, 2021, 7:34 am
All my easier UT2 sessions are at almost the exact same as yours (68-70%) but the intervals seem to be my missing ingredient in my general training however am doing significantly more at the moment due to an upcoming 5k test
Possibly you're going too slow. I have anecdotally heard people say about going slow has only made them slower, and I know of quite a few really good rowers who don't do much slow rowing at all.

Doing intervals and some 'grey zone' longer distances might be useful. I do suspect a fairly big part of the issue is in your head, and the change of circumstances, from rowing with a crowd and the associated camaraderie that comes with it, to rowing alone has taken its toll. Your mind can be your biggest supporter, or your biggest enemy if you don't focus on managing those negative thoughts.

Do you have some doubts and fears before you row atm? Are you subtly expecting it to be boring, and/or unsuccessful? Do you have to drag yourself on the erg? Is your inner chimp (bad inner voice) trying to convince you to do something else?

Seasonal differences can also affect people, along with natural cycles of form and motivation that we all have to wrestle with.

There's a few strands of possible issues at play here, but if you adapt your training for a few weeks, that should be long enough to see if that's an issue, and see some improvement. If you want some mental strength training, I highly recommend Dr Steve Peters 'The Chimp Paradox' and James Clear 'Atomic Habits'. Both books are extremely useful in advising on easy ways of addressing your innate ability to undermine your own efforts.
There's plenty of opinion's going round but typically the grey zone is something that is often avoided to prevent overtraining. I've done it myself with all my UT2 way below target split and I just crumbled over a few months so I don't think that's a method that suits me particularly.

Mentally I'm ok on the erg, UT2 I'm fine with, same with UT1 and threshold work but anything test related I'm usually quite worried and stressed out before hand. I'm normally very competitive so it's sort of something I'm used to. Especially now though where I'm behind my previous pb split from a couple of months ago makes me worried to train or do pieces trying to beat it as I'm currently behind where I feel I should be. But other than on pace work and tests I'm quite happy to erg at the moment I think.

jamesg
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Location: Trentino Italy

Re: Ideal km target for junior rower

Post by jamesg » February 22nd, 2021, 10:40 am

What's your connection with the rowing world, a school? What's your next test, and when? Are you following a progressive plan already?
08-1940, 183cm, 84kg. Last seen MHR 155, in 2k (2020-12-03) 8.47.6@23

btlifter
500m Poster
Posts: 59
Joined: November 19th, 2020, 7:10 pm

Re: Ideal km target for junior rower

Post by btlifter » February 22nd, 2021, 11:12 am

CharlieV453 wrote:
February 22nd, 2021, 9:56 am
Dangerscouse wrote:
February 22nd, 2021, 8:21 am
CharlieV453 wrote:
February 22nd, 2021, 7:34 am
All my easier UT2 sessions are at almost the exact same as yours (68-70%) but the intervals seem to be my missing ingredient in my general training however am doing significantly more at the moment due to an upcoming 5k test
Possibly you're going too slow. I have anecdotally heard people say about going slow has only made them slower, and I know of quite a few really good rowers who don't do much slow rowing at all.

Doing intervals and some 'grey zone' longer distances might be useful. I do suspect a fairly big part of the issue is in your head, and the change of circumstances, from rowing with a crowd and the associated camaraderie that comes with it, to rowing alone has taken its toll. Your mind can be your biggest supporter, or your biggest enemy if you don't focus on managing those negative thoughts.

Do you have some doubts and fears before you row atm? Are you subtly expecting it to be boring, and/or unsuccessful? Do you have to drag yourself on the erg? Is your inner chimp (bad inner voice) trying to convince you to do something else?

Seasonal differences can also affect people, along with natural cycles of form and motivation that we all have to wrestle with.

There's a few strands of possible issues at play here, but if you adapt your training for a few weeks, that should be long enough to see if that's an issue, and see some improvement. If you want some mental strength training, I highly recommend Dr Steve Peters 'The Chimp Paradox' and James Clear 'Atomic Habits'. Both books are extremely useful in advising on easy ways of addressing your innate ability to undermine your own efforts.
There's plenty of opinion's going round but typically the grey zone is something that is often avoided to prevent overtraining. I've done it myself with all my UT2 way below target split and I just crumbled over a few months so I don't think that's a method that suits me particularly.

Mentally I'm ok on the erg, UT2 I'm fine with, same with UT1 and threshold work but anything test related I'm usually quite worried and stressed out before hand. I'm normally very competitive so it's sort of something I'm used to. Especially now though where I'm behind my previous pb split from a couple of months ago makes me worried to train or do pieces trying to beat it as I'm currently behind where I feel I should be. But other than on pace work and tests I'm quite happy to erg at the moment I think.

Spending time in the grey zone will not overtrain anybody. Spending too much time at intensity (let's call that anything above the first ventilatory threshold, or zones 2 & 3 on a 3 zone model) will probably overtrain anybody.
^That's an important distinction. We can all quibble about the details, but I think that the above two sentences are as close to being universally accepted in the endurance world as one will find.

Anyway, as others have alluded to, it would seem that talking to a coach in real life is the best course of action. If you're unwilling or unable to do that, forum members will need to see a clearer breakdown of what your weekly training looks like in order to provide much useful feedback. What sorts of intensity are you include?

If you aren't including intensity - and are already fit and relatively well trained - it is very unlikely that you'll get faster. That might be fine. If your training is periodized and you are simply focusing on building your base right now, no problem. You can add intensity later (I'm a proponent of having SOME intensity year-round, but there are many ways to skin a cat).
32, 6'4, 111kg
60s: 405m
500: 1:14.6
1k: 2:51.6
2k: 5:57.3
5k: 16:28.3
10k: 34:15
60min: 16997m
HM: 1:14:27.9
Ma: 2:47:47

@competitiocam

iain
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Posts: 417
Joined: October 11th, 2007, 6:56 am
Location: Reading, UK

Re: Ideal km target for junior rower

Post by iain » February 22nd, 2021, 1:40 pm

btlifter wrote:
February 22nd, 2021, 11:12 am
Spending time in the grey zone will not overtrain anybody. Spending too much time at intensity (let's call that anything above the first ventilatory threshold, or zones 2 & 3 on a 3 zone model) will probably overtrain anybody.
Sorry, this confused me, would you mind expanding, I have always assumed "the grey zone" was zone 2 of the 3 zone model.
52, lightweight currently training 3 times a week after a long break. Free Spirit, come join us http://www.freespiritsrowing.com/forum/

btlifter
500m Poster
Posts: 59
Joined: November 19th, 2020, 7:10 pm

Re: Ideal km target for junior rower

Post by btlifter » February 22nd, 2021, 3:50 pm

iain wrote:
February 22nd, 2021, 1:40 pm
btlifter wrote:
February 22nd, 2021, 11:12 am
Spending time in the grey zone will not overtrain anybody. Spending too much time at intensity (let's call that anything above the first ventilatory threshold, or zones 2 & 3 on a 3 zone model) will probably overtrain anybody.
Sorry, this confused me, would you mind expanding, I have always assumed "the grey zone" was zone 2 of the 3 zone model.
Sorry, i could have been more clear:

Yes: in a 3 zone model, zone 2 would be the "grey zone". That's the thing with the grey zone, is that it does provide an intensity-stimulus. It's just at a 'moderate' rather than 'high' intensity.

Proponents will claim that it provides some of the benefits of higher intensity without nearly the physiological cost (allowing much more of it to be done than "high intensity" work), whereas detractors will claim that it doesn't provide the benefits of higher intensity work, yet still carries a high physiological cost, that would be better used on higher intensities.

We can each come to our own conclusions about how to best navigate that problem. But, either way, my point was simply that trained athletes will require some amount of intensity (whether moderate or high) to become faster.
32, 6'4, 111kg
60s: 405m
500: 1:14.6
1k: 2:51.6
2k: 5:57.3
5k: 16:28.3
10k: 34:15
60min: 16997m
HM: 1:14:27.9
Ma: 2:47:47

@competitiocam

Dangerscouse
Marathon Poster
Posts: 5505
Joined: April 27th, 2014, 11:11 am
Location: Liverpool, England

Re: Ideal km target for junior rower

Post by Dangerscouse » February 23rd, 2021, 6:58 am

btlifter wrote:
February 22nd, 2021, 3:50 pm
quote]
Sorry, i could have been more clear:

Yes: in a 3 zone model, zone 2 would be the "grey zone". That's the thing with the grey zone, is that it does provide an intensity-stimulus. It's just at a 'moderate' rather than 'high' intensity.

Proponents will claim that it provides some of the benefits of higher intensity without nearly the physiological cost (allowing much more of it to be done than "high intensity" work), whereas detractors will claim that it doesn't provide the benefits of higher intensity work, yet still carries a high physiological cost, that would be better used on higher intensities.

We can each come to our own conclusions about how to best navigate that problem. But, either way, my point was simply that trained athletes will require some amount of intensity (whether moderate or high) to become faster.
Good points Cam. I'm a fan of some grey zone training. Your body doesn't know the difference, and as long as there is a training 'stress' that requires adaptions, it serves a purpose. As you mention, it is beneficial that it doesn't totally wipe you out, and compromise your CNS, so it can be very useful for a longer distance imo, and to also keep it more varied and challenging.

I don't personally advocate it being the cornerstone of training, but I do know of people that it works very well for them, so as you know it's an experiment of one.
47 HWT; 6' 4"; 1k= 3:09; 2k= 6:36; 5k= 17:24; 6k= 21:09; 10k= 35:46 30mins= 8,428m 60mins= 16,461m HM= 1:16.47; FM= 2:44:04; 50k= 3:16:09; 100k= 7:52:44; 12hrs = 153km

"You reap what you row"

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CharlieV453
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Posts: 39
Joined: July 16th, 2019, 2:58 pm

Re: Ideal km target for junior rower

Post by CharlieV453 » February 24th, 2021, 10:21 am

jamesg wrote:
February 22nd, 2021, 10:40 am
What's your connection with the rowing world, a school? What's your next test, and when? Are you following a progressive plan already?
Club rower pushing for Junior GB squad. Next test is a 5k@26 on the 2nd of march. I'm not sure on the progressive-ness of my plan but workinh off hr so as I get fitter the power required will increase.

CharlieV453
Paddler
Posts: 39
Joined: July 16th, 2019, 2:58 pm

Re: Ideal km target for junior rower

Post by CharlieV453 » February 24th, 2021, 10:42 am

btlifter wrote:
February 22nd, 2021, 11:12 am

Spending time in the grey zone will not overtrain anybody. Spending too much time at intensity (let's call that anything above the first ventilatory threshold, or zones 2 & 3 on a 3 zone model) will probably overtrain anybody.
^That's an important distinction. We can all quibble about the details, but I think that the above two sentences are as close to being universally accepted in the endurance world as one will find.

Anyway, as others have alluded to, it would seem that talking to a coach in real life is the best course of action. If you're unwilling or unable to do that, forum members will need to see a clearer breakdown of what your weekly training looks like in order to provide much useful feedback. What sorts of intensity are you include?

If you aren't including intensity - and are already fit and relatively well trained - it is very unlikely that you'll get faster. That might be fine. If your training is periodized and you are simply focusing on building your base right now, no problem. You can add intensity later (I'm a proponent of having SOME intensity year-round, but there are many ways to skin a cat).
I agree with you there that intensity is required in some form at some point even if it's not going towards anything specific ay the time which will be something I'll include in the future from now on.

In regards to coaches sadly we get very little input in the way of training, we only get set 6 sessions a week, and the lads aiming for bigger thing get told to do all 6 rather than picking and choosing 4. This included 2 15ks and some grey zone I think sort of UT1 work for 30 mins or so a couple of times aswell as circuits. So very basic on the fitness front which is why I decided to try do it myself, with more sessions more in line with more successful clubs and programs. So unfortunately I don't think that's the best place to draw information from which is why I came to the forum.

Back in November this was my typical week...
(Roughly)
Mon: 1hr erg
Tues: weights + recovery session
Wed: 10k on water
Thurs: 15k on water
Fri: 90 mins cross training
Sat: rest
Sun: 15k water

So about 6 UT2 sessions and 0 at intensity (now highlighted as a mistake)

More recently with covid and being at home it looks more like this

Mon: 15k UT2 + back and biceps
Tues: 15k UT2 + Legs weights + core
Wed: Stretching and recovery + chest and triceps
Thurs: 90mins cross training + back and biceps
Fri: rest
Sat: 15k UT2 + core stability
Sun: 90' cross train + legs

With the extra time off I added a lot more weights out of choice to try and get a bit bigger (typical lad mentality 🙄) obviously not ideal for rowing but should help in some ways and keeps me from going crazy at home.
Again tho, no intensity work.

Would something like this look better for the future with base fitness while maintaining speed in mind?
Say 6 or 7 long Ut2/X training sessions (60-90mins)
2 or 3 weights sessions
About 2 grey zone
2 hard intensity sessions

Any thoughts?

iain
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Posts: 417
Joined: October 11th, 2007, 6:56 am
Location: Reading, UK

Re: Ideal km target for junior rower

Post by iain » February 24th, 2021, 1:18 pm

CharlieV453 wrote:
February 24th, 2021, 10:42 am
Would something like this look better for the future with base fitness while maintaining speed in mind?
Say 6 or 7 long Ut2/X training sessions (60-90mins)
2 or 3 weights sessions
About 2 grey zone
2 hard intensity sessions?
I would say that 2 hard and 2 grey sessions is a bit much to do every week, especially if you are also doing significant weights. I would lose a grey session and try and do the hard sessions after your easiest days on legs and back.
52, lightweight currently training 3 times a week after a long break. Free Spirit, come join us http://www.freespiritsrowing.com/forum/

btlifter
500m Poster
Posts: 59
Joined: November 19th, 2020, 7:10 pm

Re: Ideal km target for junior rower

Post by btlifter » February 24th, 2021, 4:22 pm

iain wrote:
February 24th, 2021, 1:18 pm
CharlieV453 wrote:
February 24th, 2021, 10:42 am
Would something like this look better for the future with base fitness while maintaining speed in mind?
Say 6 or 7 long Ut2/X training sessions (60-90mins)
2 or 3 weights sessions
About 2 grey zone
2 hard intensity sessions?
I would say that 2 hard and 2 grey sessions is a bit much to do every week, especially if you are also doing significant weights. I would lose a grey session and try and do the hard sessions after your easiest days on legs and back.
Seems like you're in a tough situation Charlie. Kudos to you for seeking out guidance wherever you can. Please do recognize that any feedback you receive on these forums (especially mine!) is merely opinion. Hopefully the opinion is supported by research, but it is opinion nonetheless. None of us are your coach, and most of us aren't anybody's coach (there are some exceptions to this).

I agree with iain. Conventional wisdom is to only go above the ventilatory threshold 2, max 3 times/week. While you MAY be able to tolerate doing it 4 times you will undoubtedly see diminishing returns while simultaneously increasing your risk for burning out. As you haven't been including any intensity my thought would be to start with 2 sessions of intensity/week (choose for yourself how you want to partition those between "grey" and "high intensity"). Going from 0-4 is a big and probably unnecessary jump.
32, 6'4, 111kg
60s: 405m
500: 1:14.6
1k: 2:51.6
2k: 5:57.3
5k: 16:28.3
10k: 34:15
60min: 16997m
HM: 1:14:27.9
Ma: 2:47:47

@competitiocam

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