Endurance erging - A place to discuss 42, 50, 100k upwards.

General discussion on Training. How to get better on your erg, how to use your erg to get better at another sport, or anything else about improving your abilities.
Dangerscouse
Marathon Poster
Posts: 5949
Joined: April 27th, 2014, 11:11 am
Location: Liverpool, England

Re: Endurance erging - A place to discuss 42, 50, 100k upwards.

Post by Dangerscouse » May 25th, 2021, 4:40 am

GlennUk wrote:
May 25th, 2021, 2:58 am
Dangerscouse wrote:
May 24th, 2021, 4:38 pm

I didn't know Eddie doesn't advocate doing longer distances, as I just cobbled together my own training from instinct and intuition. I've never followed a set plan, even though I had the FM plan that Eddie produced.
The longest session on the Marathon plan is 90 minutes which for me is c.19000m and without checking on the 100k plan 180 minutes. One of the things i was 'concerned about' was the fact that unlike more conventional approaches with ever increasing distance closer to full distance pre the marathon was nervous about this element of the plan.

However, Eddie is an experienced coach with a number of notables under his 'care' James Cracknel (40-49 GB marathon record ), Graham Benton (30-39 GB marathon record ), Rod Chinn 60-69 (GB marathon and WR 100k record holder) to name a few.
Dangerscouse wrote:
May 24th, 2021, 4:38 pm

I find that interesting that your pace & HR wandered when you didn't watch the monitor, as I don't have that issue, especially for HR which stays lower if I don't watch the monitor.
Whilst ive had an erg since end of 2009, after the 1st three years it gathered dust pretty much until May last year.

My total metres is just over 5M which by erging standards is not much given the timeframe involved (2.2m were last season) so perhaps it is my relative lack of experience and also trying to row at relatively low rates for such a long period of time means i have to concentrate on both my HR and my spm to avoid the catastrophe of hitting the wall half way through.
We are all unique, so there a multitude of differences that need to be accounted for, and there is very little that is definitively correct / incorrect so all too often you don't know how much better you could perform with a few tweaks in your training.

I have no doubt that Eddie knows what he is talking about, so there is going to be a whole lot of science forming his opinion.

I am a bit of an outlier in my HR generally, and definitely in terms of how I perform better when I consciously switch on to auto pilot and row with instinct. My HR stays steadier and lower when I do it that way, and my stroke rate is usually steady too, although this is affected a little bit by tiredness and zoning out too much. It definitely works for me, but I know others really struggle with it.
47 HWT; 6' 4"; 1k= 3:09; 2k= 6:36; 5k= 17:24; 6k= 20:47; 10k= 35:46 30mins= 8,428m 60mins= 16,618m HM= 1:16.47; FM= 2:40:41; 50k= 3:16:09; 100k= 7:52:44; 12hrs = 153km

"You reap what you row"

Instagram: stuwenman

iain
5k Poster
Posts: 508
Joined: October 11th, 2007, 6:56 am
Location: Reading, UK

Re: Endurance erging - A place to discuss 42, 50, 100k upwards.

Post by iain » May 25th, 2021, 8:59 am

GlennUk wrote:
May 25th, 2021, 2:58 am
The longest session on the Marathon plan is 90 minutes which for me is c.19000m and without checking on the 100k plan 180 minutes. One of the things i was 'concerned about' was the fact that unlike more conventional approaches with ever increasing distance closer to full distance pre the marathon was nervous about this element of the plan.
AIUI, physiologically long rows make little sense. EF did considerable work on the rest required after workouts and after long workouts his is enough to set the program back. Long rows are less important than long runs as there is no need to support your own weight during an erg. What you are left with is the psychological challenge. I definitely find it easier knowing that I am a distance from home that I have done recently enough that I still have the fitness from that time. Nothing worse than doubt playing on your mind. Recently H/D during a 50k when HR rose and wouldn't fall as I hadn't rowed >30km for some time and that at a very easy pace. Picked handle back up again and limped home after an 8' rest, but if I had done an FM before might have kept going. If you want to add in a few long rows, you will need to take several days off and extend the plan.
GlennUk wrote:
May 25th, 2021, 2:58 am
My total metres is just over 5M which by erging standards is not much given the timeframe involved (2.2m were last season) so perhaps it is my relative lack of experience and also trying to row at relatively low rates for such a long period of time means i have to concentrate on both my HR and my spm to avoid the catastrophe of hitting the wall half way through.
Hitting the wall happens in a minority of FMs on the erg. The odds are in your favour if you have had a decent meal before and carbs during the row. the wall is running low on glycogen, not sure why you need to regulate rating and HR especially to avoid this. In my recent FM I didn't hit the wall, but my HR plateau'd around 90% at half way and efforts to push on just left me building oxygen debt so I was forced to slow down. Got home around 1min outside target, but the last 9km was pretty unpleasant, carrying half the H/D hoards of hell!
52, lightweight currently training 3 times a week after a long break. Free Spirit, come join us http://www.freespiritsrowing.com/forum/

GlennUk
1k Poster
Posts: 118
Joined: November 12th, 2013, 12:22 pm

Re: Endurance erging - A place to discuss 42, 50, 100k upwards.

Post by GlennUk » May 25th, 2021, 10:44 am

RE controlling HR/Pace, Im not sure of the point you are making?

Seems to me that if one does not control ones work rate (whatever metric you use to do that) then you will not complete the distance at all, no matter how long or short.

Glycogen stores are finite and likely during a marathon to last of the order of 90-120minutes, likely be be depleted sooner at higher work rates.

Am i missing the point?
I reached 60 Jan 1,21, I decided to do 60k to raise money for https://www.havenshospices.org.uk/, then thought i would go further, 115,972m.

Any donations gratefully received https://www.justgiving.com/fundraising/ ... ctpossible

iain
5k Poster
Posts: 508
Joined: October 11th, 2007, 6:56 am
Location: Reading, UK

Re: Endurance erging - A place to discuss 42, 50, 100k upwards.

Post by iain » May 25th, 2021, 11:38 am

I am not being very scientific, but have only mentioned the odd report of an erger hitting the wall during an FM when properly prepared. As such, I don't think that it should be a major concern to most people. I do agree that you do (as for all TTs) need to maintain an achievable pace, I was just disputing whether the limit would be provided by glycogen reserves. It certainly was not for me. My only experience of the wall on an FM was after sitting to do an FM after a family emergency. Only later did I realise I had gone 6.5 hours beforehand without food and that had not bene a large meal!

Based on this anecdotal evidence, I have assumed that the glycogen reserves plus a normal amount consumed during he row lasts for the full distance for most ergers. Of course there are variations in the efficiency of different rowers, while those rowing at the highest paces and ratings will consume more calories. But the biggest unknown is how much of the energy will come from fat. This is very individual specific as well as depending on the intensity maintained.

With the willpower you will complete the FM even if you hit the wall, although you are likely to slow as a result. The fat required to do so is tiny even by the storage amounts normally maintained by lean rowers.

I may have misunderstood the "and" in your comment abut controlling SPM & HR. I thought you were making a point that both must be kept low to finish without hitting the wall around halfway. While I agree that there will be come activity level that would lead to this, my point was that I didn't expect that this would be achievable for most people if they were reasonably well prepared, even if performing maximally few would it the wall until the closing stages if at all. Did you actually mean that you were controlling your HR to make sure you could finish and the SPM because you had set a goal to do this (ie it was not connected to the wall point?).
52, lightweight currently training 3 times a week after a long break. Free Spirit, come join us http://www.freespiritsrowing.com/forum/

Dangerscouse
Marathon Poster
Posts: 5949
Joined: April 27th, 2014, 11:11 am
Location: Liverpool, England

Re: Endurance erging - A place to discuss 42, 50, 100k upwards.

Post by Dangerscouse » May 25th, 2021, 1:50 pm

Everyone is very different in terms of energy / glycogen. Personally I don't have anything other than a banana and a small strong coffee for an early morning row of anything less than 30k, and on a couple of occasions circa 32k (20 miles), and had no discernible effect from not eating properly for over 12 hours.
47 HWT; 6' 4"; 1k= 3:09; 2k= 6:36; 5k= 17:24; 6k= 20:47; 10k= 35:46 30mins= 8,428m 60mins= 16,618m HM= 1:16.47; FM= 2:40:41; 50k= 3:16:09; 100k= 7:52:44; 12hrs = 153km

"You reap what you row"

Instagram: stuwenman

GlennUk
1k Poster
Posts: 118
Joined: November 12th, 2013, 12:22 pm

Re: Endurance erging - A place to discuss 42, 50, 100k upwards.

Post by GlennUk » May 25th, 2021, 2:55 pm

iain wrote:
May 25th, 2021, 11:38 am
I am not being very scientific, but have only mentioned the odd report of an erger hitting the wall during an FM when properly prepared. As such, I don't think that it should be a major concern to most people. I do agree that you do (as for all TTs) need to maintain an achievable pace, I was just disputing whether the limit would be provided by glycogen reserves. It certainly was not for me. My only experience of the wall on an FM was after sitting to do an FM after a family emergency. Only later did I realise I had gone 6.5 hours beforehand without food and that had not bene a large meal!
I agree, the key is preparation and on that front i take your point.

iain wrote:
May 25th, 2021, 11:38 am
I may have misunderstood the "and" in your comment abut controlling SPM & HR. I thought you were making a point that both must be kept low to finish without hitting the wall around halfway. While I agree that there will be come activity level that would lead to this, my point was that I didn't expect that this would be achievable for most people if they were reasonably well prepared, even if performing maximally few would it the wall until the closing stages if at all. Did you actually mean that you were controlling your HR to make sure you could finish and the SPM because you had set a goal to do this (ie it was not connected to the wall point?).
Re misunderstanding, communication is at least a two way thing, and i probably didn't explain very well. I wasn't clear, i was trying to pace myself to avoid hitting the wall, but i accept that its not a function of HR and spm per se.

The HR was based around guidance in the EF plan for 100k rows, although i wasn't going quite that far, i had decided to use that as a benchmark for my 1st endurance event, at least for the 1st 40-50k so i didn't end up struggling for half the distance.

Similarly the stroke rate was based on the training i did, and of course its harder to increase the pace with a low spm over longer distances so the two to my mind went hand in hand. I suppose if i could rate at 28spm, at a lower HR then that would be fine too.

I was conscious that 60k was big step up for me, prior to this ive done 3 HM i think and nothing further and i wanted to learn form this as much as anything as i am planning to row nearly twice as far at the end of the year. If i was only doing this i may well have a poroached it differently in terms of HR etc.

As Stu has pointed out we are all different, there are no doubt others who would hate the EF plan and the strategy i adopted, but it worked for me.
I reached 60 Jan 1,21, I decided to do 60k to raise money for https://www.havenshospices.org.uk/, then thought i would go further, 115,972m.

Any donations gratefully received https://www.justgiving.com/fundraising/ ... ctpossible

whp4
6k Poster
Posts: 657
Joined: March 15th, 2006, 10:09 pm

Re: Endurance erging - A place to discuss 42, 50, 100k upwards.

Post by whp4 » May 25th, 2021, 3:04 pm

iain wrote:
May 25th, 2021, 11:38 am
I am not being very scientific, but have only mentioned the odd report of an erger hitting the wall during an FM when properly prepared. As such, I don't think that it should be a major concern to most people.
Not a major concern for most people who are properly prepared, yes. We don’t hear many reports of properly prepared runners hitting the wall, either. But someone who spends all their time doing short, hard rows is probably going to suffer, just like the sprinter who decides to see how easy it is to run for 2+ hours at what seems like a relatively easy pace.

I’d hate to give someone who rows for 10k or less the impression that they could just sit down and crank out a fast FM without some preparation; it might go OK for a while, but who wants to blow up and limp in because they went out too fast for their metabolism at that distance?

Dangerscouse
Marathon Poster
Posts: 5949
Joined: April 27th, 2014, 11:11 am
Location: Liverpool, England

Re: Endurance erging - A place to discuss 42, 50, 100k upwards.

Post by Dangerscouse » May 26th, 2021, 12:36 am

whp4 wrote:
May 25th, 2021, 3:04 pm
iain wrote:
May 25th, 2021, 11:38 am
I am not being very scientific, but have only mentioned the odd report of an erger hitting the wall during an FM when properly prepared. As such, I don't think that it should be a major concern to most people.
Not a major concern for most people who are properly prepared, yes. We don’t hear many reports of properly prepared runners hitting the wall, either. But someone who spends all their time doing short, hard rows is probably going to suffer, just like the sprinter who decides to see how easy it is to run for 2+ hours at what seems like a relatively easy pace.

I’d hate to give someone who rows for 10k or less the impression that they could just sit down and crank out a fast FM without some preparation; it might go OK for a while, but who wants to blow up and limp in because they went out too fast for their metabolism at that distance?
That is a good point. There is definitely a world of difference between just finishing a FM and a fast FM, and trying to tackle it without the appropriate preparation can be very humbling.

I remember seeing one of the Brownlee brothers hit the wall in the final stages of a triathlon, so it is possible even for the elites, albeit his pace was exceptionally fast.
47 HWT; 6' 4"; 1k= 3:09; 2k= 6:36; 5k= 17:24; 6k= 20:47; 10k= 35:46 30mins= 8,428m 60mins= 16,618m HM= 1:16.47; FM= 2:40:41; 50k= 3:16:09; 100k= 7:52:44; 12hrs = 153km

"You reap what you row"

Instagram: stuwenman

GlennUk
1k Poster
Posts: 118
Joined: November 12th, 2013, 12:22 pm

Re: Endurance erging - A place to discuss 42, 50, 100k upwards.

Post by GlennUk » May 26th, 2021, 4:06 am

And FWIW 'fast' is of course a relative term which varies from individual to individual.

Its easy for me to think post event that i could have gone faster, but i dont have the experience yet to judge just how i would have coped at a pace a few seconds/500m faster over 60km. I suspect the final sprint would not have been as quick as it was!

I am happy to have managed the distance and stuck to my plan, completed non-stop, now i have some idea how things may go for long rows i will build on what i have learnt.

it will be interesting for me to explore my performance and any improvements i can make on the way to my next challenge of almost 116km, my key target is to complete non-stop, the pace? Well i guess it will be what it will be, but it will be based around a target HR threshold
I reached 60 Jan 1,21, I decided to do 60k to raise money for https://www.havenshospices.org.uk/, then thought i would go further, 115,972m.

Any donations gratefully received https://www.justgiving.com/fundraising/ ... ctpossible

Dangerscouse
Marathon Poster
Posts: 5949
Joined: April 27th, 2014, 11:11 am
Location: Liverpool, England

Re: Endurance erging - A place to discuss 42, 50, 100k upwards.

Post by Dangerscouse » May 26th, 2021, 8:54 am

GlennUk wrote:
May 26th, 2021, 4:06 am
And FWIW 'fast' is of course a relative term which varies from individual to individual.

Its easy for me to think post event that i could have gone faster, but i dont have the experience yet to judge just how i would have coped at a pace a few seconds/500m faster over 60km. I suspect the final sprint would not have been as quick as it was!
It's a perpetual mental battle as to whether you can go faster or not, especially when you go past 42k. There are very fine margins, and even 0.5 secs average pace can make a big difference in how sustainable it is.

When you hit the inevitable wobble, you can sabotage yourself by convincing yourself you've gone too fast and it's not possible. Lots of mental strength is needed in these moments, which also starts to drain your glycogen levels, due to the glucose requirements of your brain, so that can also become an unintended consequence.
47 HWT; 6' 4"; 1k= 3:09; 2k= 6:36; 5k= 17:24; 6k= 20:47; 10k= 35:46 30mins= 8,428m 60mins= 16,618m HM= 1:16.47; FM= 2:40:41; 50k= 3:16:09; 100k= 7:52:44; 12hrs = 153km

"You reap what you row"

Instagram: stuwenman

GlennUk
1k Poster
Posts: 118
Joined: November 12th, 2013, 12:22 pm

Re: Endurance erging - A place to discuss 42, 50, 100k upwards.

Post by GlennUk » May 27th, 2021, 9:53 am

Dangerscouse wrote:
May 26th, 2021, 8:54 am

It's a perpetual mental battle as to whether you can go faster or not, especially when you go past 42k. There are very fine margins, and even 0.5 secs average pace can make a big difference in how sustainable it is.
I think the odd thing is that having suffered no ill effects and found the experience not particularly uncomfortable (apart form the last 5k which was tough) ones mind does play tricks into thinking maybe I could have shaved a few minutes off.

However, I achieved my immediate goals and will now focus on the next challenge, spoke with Eddie Fletcher earlier today and have a plan, paddling for the next week or ten days then assuming i feel ok will move forward on the 116k plan.
I reached 60 Jan 1,21, I decided to do 60k to raise money for https://www.havenshospices.org.uk/, then thought i would go further, 115,972m.

Any donations gratefully received https://www.justgiving.com/fundraising/ ... ctpossible

sanbornm
Paddler
Posts: 4
Joined: May 13th, 2021, 7:51 pm
Location: Victoria, BC, Canada

Re: Endurance erging - A place to discuss 42, 50, 100k upwards.

Post by sanbornm » June 11th, 2021, 1:42 pm

Hey all,
Thanks again for all the information, advice, and support.
I've started training for the 100km fundraising attempt I'll make in December. So far so good. I row 4 days a week (2 on 1 off 2 on 2 off) with a minimum distance of 12 km per session, moving to a basement of 15 km this week. I've got my slides all set, and that honestly makes it much more enjoyable.
A small milestone on Tuesday at around 6 am was rolling the odometer for this training past the 100km (cumulative) mark. The more sobering news is that it was in my eighth training session after a total of ~7.5 hours of rowing. :lol:
So, not fooling myself into thinking this is going to be easy.

Happy Friday, and a good weekend to you all.

GlennUk
1k Poster
Posts: 118
Joined: November 12th, 2013, 12:22 pm

Re: Endurance erging - A place to discuss 42, 50, 100k upwards.

Post by GlennUk » June 19th, 2021, 4:19 am

sanbornm wrote:
June 11th, 2021, 1:42 pm
Hey all,
Thanks again for all the information, advice, and support.
I've started training for the 100km fundraising attempt I'll make in December. So far so good. I row 4 days a week (2 on 1 off 2 on 2 off) with a minimum distance of 12 km per session, moving to a basement of 15 km this week. I've got my slides all set, and that honestly makes it much more enjoyable.
A small milestone on Tuesday at around 6 am was rolling the odometer for this training past the 100km (cumulative) mark. The more sobering news is that it was in my eighth training session after a total of ~7.5 hours of rowing. :lol:
So, not fooling myself into thinking this is going to be easy.

Happy Friday, and a good weekend to you all.
HI Havent been here for a while as i took a break of c.3 weeks of easy paddling before moving onto the 100k plan, which started monday just gone.

Are you following any kind of plan and would you like to outline the approach?

Im following the Eddie Fletcher 100k plan which focuses on HRmax as a means of determining workrate for any given training distance, followed by rate and then pace, with the three components controlled within defined values.

I used data form my C2 log to set a value for HRmax, i think i was overly conservative during the lead up to my 60k effort in May, used a value of 176bpm. I had conducted a HRmax test but only recorded a value of 169bpm, however my RPE suggested this was way to low. Reviewed my C2 log and found over the preceding month or two prior to starting training for endurance that i had recorded HR values in excess of 170bpm up to 181bpm (only once for a few seconds). After reviewing the C2 log increased the HRmax value to determine HR values for a given exercise incrementally and ended up at a value of 176bpm which 'felt' about right.

However, when i did the June C2C i recorded a value of 176 or higher for the last 1min 20seconds. I have now adjusted my training to reflect the higher HRmax value, topping out at 183bpm.

Have just done the 1st three sessions of Week1 100k plan, interested to see how i cope using this HRmax value and the implications it brings.
I reached 60 Jan 1,21, I decided to do 60k to raise money for https://www.havenshospices.org.uk/, then thought i would go further, 115,972m.

Any donations gratefully received https://www.justgiving.com/fundraising/ ... ctpossible

User avatar
MudSweatAndYears
Paddler
Posts: 42
Joined: May 24th, 2020, 6:31 am

Re: Endurance erging - A place to discuss 42, 50, 100k upwards.

Post by MudSweatAndYears » June 23rd, 2021, 9:12 am

Great info in this thread, and deepy impressed by the distances you guys are racing. I (a 60 yr old LW) have started training for a marathon. Five months back I did a PB on an hour-of-power (reached 15120 m), and based on that pace I am aiming for a sub 3hr (stretch target a 2:55 h:m) marathon.

Now the thing is: I tend to row with quite a low stroke rate that corresponds with an SPI = 10 W.min/stroke. For instance, the 1 hr time trial I did at 21 spm. However, when I train at marathon pace my stroke rate drops to 17 spm. This makes sense from SPI perspective (SPI remains at 10 W.min/strooke), but I wonder if this is a suboptimal rating. Is 17 spm too low for marathon distance? To optimize my time on the marathon, should I increase my rating (while somewhat dropping my SPI)?

Appreciate your views!
I run in the mud, I sweat on the erg, and I happily battle the years...
M 60, 1.83m/6', 74kg/163lb. Erging since Sept 2019. ACEP = 648 (15120 m hour-of-power at age 60).

GlennUk
1k Poster
Posts: 118
Joined: November 12th, 2013, 12:22 pm

Re: Endurance erging - A place to discuss 42, 50, 100k upwards.

Post by GlennUk » June 23rd, 2021, 9:32 am

MudSweatAndYears wrote:
June 23rd, 2021, 9:12 am
Great info in this thread, and deepy impressed by the distances you guys are racing. I (a 60 yr old LW) have started training for a marathon. Five months back I did a PB on an hour-of-power (reached 15120 m), and based on that pace I am aiming for a sub 3hr (stretch target a 2:55 h:m) marathon.

Now the thing is: I tend to row with quite a low stroke rate that corresponds with an SPI = 10 W.min/stroke. For instance, the 1 hr time trial I did at 21 spm. However, when I train at marathon pace my stroke rate drops to 17 spm. This makes sense from SPI perspective (SPI remains at 10 W.min/strooke), but I wonder if this is a suboptimal rating. Is 17 spm too low for marathon distance? To optimize my time on the marathon, should I increase my rating (while somewhat dropping my SPI)?

Appreciate your views!
Dear Mud,

I would suggest that 1st you need to rate at a value you are comfortable with and can maintain for the duration, whatever the distance is. Personally, The advice i have is that typically c.18-26spm range is 'ideal'.

i always thought that LW would likely rate higher than a HW but as has been said were all different, at 17spm you would be perhaps odd one out?.

I averaged 25spm over 5hours and 60K, Im 60 too, HW although probably toward the lower end of the range, being between 13-14 stone (although hoping to get a few pounds off, still!).
I reached 60 Jan 1,21, I decided to do 60k to raise money for https://www.havenshospices.org.uk/, then thought i would go further, 115,972m.

Any donations gratefully received https://www.justgiving.com/fundraising/ ... ctpossible

Post Reply