Struggling with shortened stroke while finessing technique

[robhely]

After watching a lot of videos on technique and doing a lot of drills, I finally got around to videoing myself to make sure everything was working OK. My technique wasn't too bad, but I noticed that my shins were going past vertical, which meant that my heels were lifting off the plate quite a lot and I wasn't getting my hips behind my shoulders (1 o'clock position) quite enough.

After watching even more videos, I started practicing Dark Horse's technique of keeping heels down while mastering the body swing. Then I found that what felt 'right' to me was lifting heels just a little bit, but making sure shins didn't go past vertical (looked good when I videoed it). This felt good on week 5 of the BPP when I rowed 7000m at UT2, but today when I tackled the 4 x 800 I found it felt really weird when I rated up to 32-36 at TR. I felt that the shortened stroke was working against me; that I had to race up and down the slide faster than was comfortable to maintain a pace I knew was achievable for me. It seemed like I had to sit at 36 to make the same progress I used to do at 32.

I understand that the body swing is essential in being able to add some core to save the arms a little, but it just feels like the shortened stroke is compromising my pace after rowing for 6 weeks or so with a longer stroke. I would have thought that better technique would have instantly made me feel faster and more efficient, but it seems to be having the opposite effect.

Any tips for mastering the shorter stroke and getting used to not bringing the slide so far forward?

[Cyclist2]

It is hard to critique you with just a description. Post a video so we can observe the stroke.

That being said, my thought is that you aren't holding a strong core to get the most out of your legs at the initiation of the drive. Shins past vertical may give you a longer stroke but it will be weaker at the initiation, plus you're probably hunching and reaching at the catch. Bend from the hips, sit up straight, stabilize your core and push with your legs, transferring that power through your core to the handle.

To get that high of a stroke rate, you may be rushing the recovery. Try dropping the drag factor a little so you have a faster drive, then take a controlled recovery, getting in the catch position early, ready for that strong push at the catch. Don't lean too far back at the finish trying to lengthen your stroke - that's wasted motion and will cause you to rush the recovery.

Maybe you just need a lower stroke rate to get the proper technique that allows you to apply full power through the entire (shortened) stroke.

[Dangerscouse]

Imo there are some deviations from the best technique that will work better for you and maybe you shouldn't change. Heels flat is never going to happen for me, and I don't ever try to do it either and I think that I slightly overcompress too, but it's something I'm happy with and works for me. Admittedly if I do, it's only very slightly.

I struggle rating over r32, and r34 is probably as high as I ever want to row unless it's a really short distance. That might be the same for you, so I'd lower it down to r32 and concentrate on building up your power for each stroke.

Do you feel like your breathing is an issue when the stroke rate gets too high?

[robhely]

Imo there are some deviations from the best technique that will work better for you and maybe you shouldn't change. Heels flat is never going to happen for me, and I don't ever try to do it either and I think that I slightly overcompress too, but it's something I'm happy with and works for me. Admittedly if I do, it's only very slightly.

I struggle rating over r32, and r34 is probably as high as I ever want to row unless it's a really short distance. That might be the same for you, so I'd lower it down to r32 and concentrate on building up your power for each stroke.

Do you feel like your breathing is an issue when the stroke rate gets too high?

Breathing isn't an issue, it just feels like my technique is harder to maintain. I always try not to rush to the catch, but at r36 it feels like everything is rushed. I think I'm the same as you in that heels flat is never going to work. I can get quite easily get vertical shins with heel lift-off and even Dark Horse says that the heels flat thing is just a good starting point while learning. I'm not sure how to post a video, I guess it's a case of putting it on Youtube and posting the link. I'll give it a go, maybe even the before and after videos if I can figure it out.

[robhely]

It is hard to critique you with just a description. Post a video so we can observe the stroke.

That being said, my thought is that you aren't holding a strong core to get the most out of your legs at the initiation of the drive. Shins past vertical may give you a longer stroke but it will be weaker at the initiation, plus you're probably hunching and reaching at the catch. Bend from the hips, sit up straight, stabilize your core and push with your legs, transferring that power through your core to the handle.

To get that high of a stroke rate, you may be rushing the recovery. Try dropping the drag factor a little so you have a faster drive, then take a controlled recovery, getting in the catch position early, ready for that strong push at the catch. Don't lean too far back at the finish trying to lengthen your stroke - that's wasted motion and will cause you to rush the recovery.

Maybe you just need a lower stroke rate to get the proper technique that allows you to apply full power through the entire (shortened) stroke.

Video here:

https://youtu.be/AoKoCIoKDc0

Bear in mind that I'm rowing at r21 here.

[Dangerscouse]

Video here:

https://youtu.be/AoKoCIoKDc0

Bear in mind that I'm rowing at r21 here.

I think you could compress a bit more without any issue, not much more but a bit.

Generally, I think that looks like a good technique, and the only thing I noticed that might need some attention is your feet lifting off the footplates at the end, so the straps are stopping you. That leaks power so it's good to try and change that, albeit there are lots of very good rowers who don't change it.

Rowing strapless will help change it as you learn to hold your centre of gravity and engage your core more effectively to keep the power in the drive away from the footplates.

[Cyclist2]

Video here:

https://youtu.be/AoKoCIoKDc0

Bear in mind that I'm rowing at r21 here.

That actually looks pretty good to me. Dangerscouse's comments are just what I'd reiterate. To help the pulling against the footstraps thing, push your hands away a little quicker at the finish to stop the backward momentum. You're pausing just a bit at the finish. If you row strapless (which is a good thing for technique), you'll figure that out pretty quickly!

Keep working at it, no real problems. Have fun!

[robhely]

Thanks, that's really good feedback on technique, good to know I'm in the ballpark.

I'll give the strapless rowing and pushing hards away faster a go, although I'm pretty sure I only pause like that when I'm deliberately trying to keep the rate down.

[iain]

My technique is poor, so please be critical of my comments! I noticed that your stroke is not as smooth as most. There is a bit of a pause at the finish. from OTW I move my arms in a continuous curve at the finish although I compensate by pulling higher than most to give room to go down and round (required to extract the oar OTW), this means my hands go away much faster and at high ratings it means I am less hurried on the slide. In addition there seems a bit of a drop off in the acceleration late in the leg drive before you use your core and arms. There should be a smooth transition with the back moving before the legs are straight so that the acceleration is continuous. If you look at the force curve, if I am right, the up curve gradient would decrease in the middle and then increase again. After the intial part the gradient should only decrease.

As it is the impact at higher ratings that you are concerned with, it wopuld be helpful to see a video at higher ratings. Probably R36+ is unnecessary (as inevitably a compromise and often accompanied by reduced slide), but at R32 should show how this happens and will mean any pauses only found at lower ratings are removed.

[robhely]

My technique is poor, so please be critical of my comments! I noticed that your stroke is not as smooth as most. There is a bit of a pause at the finish. from OTW I move my arms in a continuous curve at the finish although I compensate by pulling higher than most to give room to go down and round (required to extract the oar OTW), this means my hands go away much faster and at high ratings it means I am less hurried on the slide. In addition there seems a bit of a drop off in the acceleration late in the leg drive before you use your core and arms. There should be a smooth transition with the back moving before the legs are straight so that the acceleration is continuous. If you look at the force curve, if I am right, the up curve gradient would decrease in the middle and then increase again. After the intial part the gradient should only decrease.

As it is the impact at higher ratings that you are concerned with, it wopuld be helpful to see a video at higher ratings. Probably R36+ is unnecessary (as inevitably a compromise and often accompanied by reduced slide), but at R32 should show how this happens and will mean any pauses only found at lower ratings are removed.

Thanks for the feedback Iain, I had a go at reducing the pause at the end of the stroke today (and getting my hands away faster) and it felt really good. In terms of the back moving before the legs are straight, I think that's a really valid point and one that the video's I've been watching don't seem to focus on. I thought that with the drills I do there is always a focus on separating each component of the stroke, but it makes sense that the back needs to start moving before the legs are fully extended, otherwise there will be a drop off in acceleration as you say. I noticed today that as soon as I increase my rate, this seems to happen naturally.

I will video myself at r32 some time, I was going to do it today, but I ended up having bash at the 500m and got my rate up to a very ugly r40, which wasn't pretty, but got the job done, shaving 3 seconds off my previous PB. That was followed by 20 mins of very slow rowing...

Is it normal for a lightweight rower to have to rate up to 40 for the 500m? I find that even with the 2000m, I can get enough power out of r32. Having said that, my goal is for a 7 min 2000m, which might not be achievable at r32.

[iain]

Is it normal for a lightweight rower to have to rate up to 40 for the 500m? I find that even with the 2000m, I can get enough power out of r32. Having said that, my goal is for a 7 min 2000m, which might not be achievable at r32.

Many heavy weights exceed 40 on 500m at least for a part. I suspect that the rate may be more dependent on strength and height rather than weight. 500m is always ugly with the best 500's done at unsustainable ratings and powers and the pace dropping off at the end despite throwing everything at it (pushing rating, reducing the slide length as legs slow etc.) 500m is an interesting "transition" distance. It is the top end for the out and out sprinters who are forced to reduce the sprinting adaptions (basically inefficient ways to get extra pace), while requiring modified sprint like technique for the rest of us.

As for your optimum rating for a 2k, this varies widely, some have managed R38! But the CV fitness required for this high a rating of full power strokes for the duration of a 2k is mind blowing. Many lightweights achieve good times even rating at 30 for most of the 2k. The static erg punishes high ratings and rewards high power per stroke. So it is definitely worth working on increased power per stroke in parallel with maintaining a high rating! Where the sweet spot is for any individual requires experimentation and will vary with fitness.

[Dangerscouse]

Is it normal for a lightweight rower to have to rate up to 40 for the 500m? I find that even with the 2000m, I can get enough power out of r32. Having said that, my goal is for a 7 min 2000m, which might not be achievable at r32.

I agree with Iain, and the stroke rate, just like drag factor, is a means to an end to find where you're most efficient. That may be higher or lower than others, but just find your normal.

It may also change over time as you adapt and improve, so sometimes you've just got to do what you can with what you've got right now.

[MPx]

My advice would be to forget about the ultra sprints for now while you're refining your technique - by which I mean 500m or less (100m,1min, etc). To do them justice as stand alone events, then you need to compromise much of the good prctice that you need for most of "normal" rowing/erging. Those ultra sprints also tend exaggerate the advantatges of the giants and strength specialists so will also be more challenging for lightweights. For anything over 500m a proper stroke and sensible rate will work best for everyone. It is true that shorter stature people tend to maintain a higher rate for any given pace than the giants but that's not universal and everyone needs to find what works best for them, but within norms rather than the extremes. So by all means use 500s or even 1min/250s for interval training - they are great workouts to help you improve - but as a set of intervals, pace will be something closer to 2k pace and not as extreme as demanded by a stand alone piece.

[robhely]

My advice would be to forget about the ultra sprints for now while you're refining your technique - by which I mean 500m or less (100m,1min, etc). To do them justice as stand alone events, then you need to compromise much of the good prctice that you need for most of "normal" rowing/erging. Those ultra sprints also tend exaggerate the advantatges of the giants and strength specialists so will also be more challenging for lightweights. For anything over 500m a proper stroke and sensible rate will work best for everyone. It is true that shorter stature people tend to maintain a higher rate for any given pace than the giants but that's not universal and everyone needs to find what works best for them, but within norms rather than the extremes. So by all means use 500s or even 1min/250s for interval training - they are great workouts to help you improve - but as a set of intervals, pace will be something closer to 2k pace and not as extreme as demanded by a stand alone piece.

Thanks, some good advice there. I definitely noticed that when I was doing 500m intervals it was closer to my 2k pace and therefore technique didn't go out the window like with my full-out 500m attempt. Now that my 500m time isn't so glaringly inconsistent with my other times, I'm happy to leave it for a good long while and focus on rowing longer distances with better technique.

[jamesg]

I find i can pull ratings up to about 28-30 with a standard legs-back-arms low rate full length training style. Over that rating, I cut the finish, which being arms only is not much use anyway. This might happen in the last 100m of a race.

Try a sequence of short pieces, say 100m, at increasing ratings. There's a sharp learning curve. Inertial loads are significant at high rates on erg. Any action cut out is a gain in time and in handle work next stroke. Watch Watts, the resolution is better.

Bled is 25-28 May. If the Rumanians show, we'll see 2k done at 40-43. The first high rate 1x race I saw was Xeno in Atlanta 1996, where he devastated the best in the world. With hatchets, gearing is critical but he was the only sculler who seemed to know it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vh1llni-Oi8

getting used to not bringing the slide so far forward?

Put a piece of rope round the rail at 40-50 cm from the stretcher. That's where the rails stop in a shell, leaving the footwell clear and so we can't slide through the work. Swing forward onto your feet before moving the slide. This is the first lesson in rowing, so we get the hands past before lifting the knees and the weight on the feet.