Noob observations (C2 vs Skillrow)

[Tsnor]

Garmin hasn't made any announcement off this kind, at all. Not even a hint in the ANT+ phase-out press release.

<warning, this is the google AI summary of Garmin announcements. It may be incorrect. I didn't cross check because it matched what I previously read. Emphasis is mine.>

Garmin announced ANT+ membership and certification programs are ending: This means companies can no longer apply for new product certifications or participate in member benefits like technical working groups.

Existing ANT+ devices will continue to work: Garmin will ensure that ANT+ is still available on dual ANT+/BLE chipsets to support legacy devices. Existing ANT+ devices using defined profiles will not be affected.

Focus is shifting to BLE: Garmin's increased focus will be on Bluetooth Low Energy (BLE), which is more widely adopted and better aligned with the upcoming regulations.

ANT+ documentation will be made freely available: After June 30, 2025, all ANT+ documentation will be available online for developers.

[Tsnor]

Please note that FTMS is an absolutely horrible protocol for rowing. It is actually a step backward compared to ANT+ for data richness. In essence it is just a distance and speed report every 1 sec. The PM5 data is much much richer and also event-driven (i.e. report on the end of the drive and recovery).

Bummer. I use the ant+ data to get power, etc., to the garmin ecosystem. I planned on keeping my ant+ (no ftms) garmin fr 265 for a long time. Hope concept2 leaves the ant+ support in the pm5 for a long time.

On the good news front, BTLE does seem to be adding broadcast tech (no connection required) that ANT had, so maybe they will also catch up on things like rower profiles and event driven data capture.

[JaapvanE]

Focus is shifting to BLE: Garmin's increased focus will be on Bluetooth Low Energy (BLE), which is more widely adopted and better aligned with the upcoming regulations.

Yeah, but do they mean Bluetooth FTMS here, or simply a new/different protocol?

To clarify. Technically, the protocol Concept2 uses is also a Bluetooth Low Energy protocol. So that BLE is going to be used is logical, but what are the characteristic definitions used on top?

It is much more elaborate and complex than the single characteristic provided by FTMS. To compare: Concept2 provides a BLE service with 10 frequent characteristics (= messages) which report on all metrics shown by ErgData during rowing. 4 report key metrics every 250ms, 6 report per drive/recovery. Additionally, there are 6 characteristics providing summaries at the end of the split/interval. It total 16 characteristics that provide the core of the Concept2 messaging, essentially providing all metrics ErgData can display, and several more.

And then there is FTMS. In their perspective, an Erg essentially is a weird bike. It can report time, distance, strokecount, strokerate, power, calories, and speed. That's it.

Bummer. I use the ant+ data to get power, etc., to the garmin ecosystem. I planned on keeping my ant+ (no ftms) garmin fr 265 for a long time. Hope concept2 leaves the ant+ support in the pm5 for a long time.

If it's there, I guess it is there to stay in the current designs. Why disable working hardware with a colossal installed base? To be honest, ANT+ has quite some advantages as it is broadcast oriented. One of the biggest issues with BLE is that upon connection loss, a BLE HRM will not start advertising again, requiring some time before you can reconnect to it. And I use ANT+ to control my Headwind as well (aside my PM5 and ORM monitors). Broadcasting this kind of data is quite acceptable in home scenario's.

On the good news front, BTLE does seem to be adding broadcast tech (no connection required) that ANT had, so maybe they will also catch up on things like rower profiles and event driven data capture.

I hope so. But given the bad job they did on the current implementation (given the good example of the widely published PM5 protocol!) I highly doubt it. I'm the first one to point out issues in the PM5 protocol, but the FTMS people are totally clueless about rowing.

I hope Garmin starts supporting the PM5 protocol (and starts recording it!) and that Concept2 will add more than one consumer of data, or simply starts broadcasting data. This way we get richer data in the Garmin logbook...

[Tsnor]

Yeah, but do they mean Bluetooth FTMS here, or simply a new/different protocol?

Don't know, but is a $600-$1000 garmin fenrix sports watch that cannot control fitness equipment viable? I was unpleasantly surprised that my $400 watch can't even extract cycling power data from the BTLE FTMS cycles down at the gym (and was surprised those cycles don't emulate BTLE power meters). Think with FE-C gone that Garmin has no short term alternative except to provide FTMS. I doubt they will launch another competitive standard or go it alone pairwise, too expensive.

To compare: Concept2 provides a BLE service with 10 frequent characteristics (= messages) which report on all metrics shown by ErgData during rowing. 4 report key metrics every 250ms, 6 report per drive/recovery. Additionally, there are 6 characteristics providing summaries at the end of the split/interval. It total 16 characteristics that provide the core of the Concept2 messaging, essentially providing all metrics ErgData can display, and several more.

Good to know. I looked hard at the FTMS stack which is all public, but never looked (or had access??) to the Concept2 BTLE stack (or the ant+ fe-c stack, which i guess is now public but used to be paywalled).

And then there is FTMS. In their perspective, an Erg essentially is a weird bike. It can report time, distance, strokecount, strokerate, power, calories, and speed. That's it.

Agree very treadmill/bike centric. As you say, for rowing FTMS supports: Stroke Rate ; Stroke Count ; Average Stroke Rate ; Total Distance ; Instantaneous Pace ; Average Pace ; Instantaneous Power ; Average Power ; Resistance Level ; Total Energy ; Energy per Hour ; Energy per Minute ; Heart Rate ; Metabolic Equivalent ; Elapsed Time ; Remaining Time ; What else would you like to see? Interval Support! Maybe drive length? ..?

Hope concept2 leaves the ant+ support in the pm5 for a long time.

If it's there, I guess it is there to stay in the current designs. Why disable working hardware with a colossal installed base?

Why indeed! Exactly how I feel about Concept2 dropping USB cable support for the PM5 and Ergdata. The Ergdata/PM5 BTLE support has been painless, but I was very happily hard wired until C2 yanked the support. Ergdata used to autostart when I powered up the PM5.

I hope Garmin starts supporting the PM5 protocol (and starts recording it!) and that Concept2 will add more than one consumer of data, or simply starts broadcasting data. This way we get richer data in the Garmin logbook...

I'd rather Garmin used a different route to PM5 data so that I can continue to use Ergdata. (unless we get multiple consumers or broadcast). Given choice of complete data in C2 log and complete data in Garmin ecosystem right now C2 log wins. If Garmin ever integrated rowing into their fitness stack (Firstbeat Analytics, which today really only has cycling and running) that might change.

[JaapvanE]

Agree very treadmill/bike centric. As you say, for rowing FTMS supports: Stroke Rate ; Stroke Count ; Average Stroke Rate ; Total Distance ; Instantaneous Pace ; Average Pace ; Instantaneous Power ; Average Power ; Resistance Level ; Total Energy ; Energy per Hour ; Energy per Minute ; Heart Rate ; Metabolic Equivalent ; Elapsed Time ; Remaining Time ; What else would you like to see? Interval Support! Maybe drive length? ..?

Distance per stroke for starters, as ANT+ already reports that and it is quite a usefull metric. Dragfactor as it tells a lot about machine setup/state. But drive time, average drive force and peak drive force are close. They tell a lot about how the stroke looked. If possible force curves, but that would be too rowing specific.

I'd rather Garmin used a different route to PM5 data so that I can continue to use Ergdata. (unless we get multiple consumers or broadcast). Given choice of complete data in C2 log and complete data in Garmin ecosystem right now C2 log wins. If Garmin ever integrated rowing into their fitness stack (Firstbeat Analytics, which today really only has cycling and running) that might change.

I'd miss the breathing rate, which is a tell-tale sign I'd left Zone 2 or 3. Skin temperature is nice but not as usefull.