90 minute piece!!!

[hjs]

Paul's Formula gives a good idea but do rember that it,s a rough average.
Not just training but also your personal strenght's do play a big role. If you are a sprinter bye nature you will be able to do a good 500 but no matter how much you train your endurance, you will never be able to use this power according the formula.
The same goes for a typical endurance athlete, they will never be able to produce a really good 500m.

[PaulS]

Paul's Formula gives a good idea but do rember that it,s a rough average.
Not just training but also your personal strenght's do play a big role. If you are a sprinter bye nature you will be able to do a good 500 but no matter how much you train your endurance, you will never be able to use this power according the formula.
The same goes for a typical endurance athlete, they will never be able to produce a really good 500m.

This is of course correct, however my "Law" was developed to reflect what would be happening with "Elite Rowers", not the entire population that has decided that indoor rowing might be for them. So yes, if you are not built quite right to be an elite rower there may be areas that you will simply not be able to adapt to.

First rule in elite athletics: Pick your parents wisely.

That said, it does remain a reasonable guide to get things back in balance or show how far they may be out. Frankly some prefer to be way out of balance and that's just a choice which I have no problem with at all, unless I was your rowing coach.

[Nosmo]

For the more mathematically inclinded Pauls formula can be written:

P = C + 5 * log_2(D),

where P is pace, C is a constant and D is the distance.
Log_2 is the lograthim base 2.
note log_2(x) = log(x)/log(2) = ln(x)/ln(2)

The difference in pace between two distances d1 and d2 will be:
5*log_2(d1/d2)

If we choose a refernce pace P for 2000m the pace for other distances are:
250 P - 15
500m P - 10
750m P -7.1
1000m P - 5
1500m P - 2.1
2000m P
2500m P + 1.6
3000m P + 2.9
4000m P + 5
5000m P + 6.6
6000m P + 7.9
7500m P + 9.5
8000m P + 10
10000m P + 11.6
12500m P + 13.2
15000m P + 14.5
17500m P + 15.6
20000m P + 16.6
21097m P + 17
421095 P + 22
100k P + 28.2

[Nosmo]

Paul,
You asked yesterday if I did 1000m and 500m to fill out my times.

Did 500m this morning: 1:37.7 rate 41. DF=121, 40 degF WU ~6500m, with 2 stops to streech. Power 10 or power 15 ~500m slowly increasing power with each one. and then a 30 & 50 seconds @ sub 1:40 pace. No breakfast.
125m splits, rate
1:39.2 39
1:36.8 42
1:37.2 42
1:38.0 40

Paddled another 700m streched some more. I then tried a 1000m. Based on my 500m & 2K times I should have been able to do 1:43, but knew I was not recovered and would not do well. I did a fly and die, which is pretty rare for me: 200m 1:45, 400m 1:43.5, 600m 1:44.7, then paddled it in for 4:13. I could tell at 400m I was going to die and was thinking I should back off to a 1:48, but stupidly didn't.

Then tried another 500m knowing it would be slower. I have not done any rowing at anything aproaching the rating I had for the 500m so I thought I should increase the drag factor and try a lower rating. set the DF to 128. Did a 1:42.2 at a 34 with splits of 1:41.6, 1:40.4, 1:42.2 and 1:44.4.

So my times (more accurately reported this time. The final column is my percentile from the CII rankins for 40-49 LTW men)

500m 1:37.7 1:37.7 69%
2000m 7:11.1 1:47.7 +10 68%
5000m 18:58.6 1:53.9 +6.2 76%
10000m 38:49.9 1:56.5 + 2.6 78%
21097m 1:23:34 1:58.8 + 2.3 82%

so the 500, 2000 & 5000 are not too far off your formula, the others are.

I know I can bring all of those times down, just by taking the test serously. I just started rowing regularly again in october and have 375K since then. I set a near term goal of a marathon at a 2:00 pace so I have been emphasising endurance. I did decide this week to start adding some strength work. On wed after a half marathon at a 2:00 pace, I did 10 strokes at a damper factor of 10 and a low rating. I figured I will add increasing sets of that to the end of 2 workouts per week.
The percentiles clearly shows I'm better at endurance which given what I've been doing and my history is what I would expect.

[PaulS]

Paul,
You asked yesterday if I did 1000m and 500m to fill out my times.

Did 500m this morning: 1:37.7 rate 41. DF=121, 40 degF WU ~6500m, with 2 stops to streech. Power 10 or power 15 ~500m slowly increasing power with each one. and then a 30 & 50 seconds @ sub 1:40 pace. No breakfast.
125m splits, rate
1:39.2 39
1:36.8 42
1:37.2 42
1:38.0 40

Paddled another 700m streched some more. I then tried a 1000m. Based on my 500m & 2K times I should have been able to do 1:43, but knew I was not recovered and would not do well. I did a fly and die, which is pretty rare for me: 200m 1:45, 400m 1:43.5, 600m 1:44.7, then paddled it in for 4:13. I could tell at 400m I was going to die and was thinking I should back off to a 1:48, but stupidly didn't.

Then tried another 500m knowing it would be slower. I have not done any rowing at anything aproaching the rating I had for the 500m so I thought I should increase the drag factor and try a lower rating. set the DF to 128. Did a 1:42.2 at a 34 with splits of 1:41.6, 1:40.4, 1:42.2 and 1:44.4. I was hungry and not good.

SO my times (more accurately)

500m 1:37.7 1:37.7
2000m 7:11.1 1:47.7 +10
5000m 18:58.6 1:53.9 +6.2
10000m 38:49.9 1:56.5 + 2.6
21097m 1:23:34 1:58.8 + 2.3

So your 2k falls right in line with the power that you have, right up to the 5k, then your endurance is considerably working to your benefit. I'd guess that you could take advantage of your endurance and with a good race plan do a bit better on the 2k, but it won't get much better until the 500m time improves. Good on you for the 500m and then going after the 1k, but that would have been similar to trying the 500m again, which you did. Max efforts will be tough to repeat in the same hour, even the same day is pushing it, though the shorter the distance the shorter the recovery time. I.e. a HM Max could take weeks to fully recover from.

[Nosmo]

So your 2k falls right in line with the power that you have, right up to the 5k, then your endurance is considerably working to your benefit. I'd guess that you could take advantage of your endurance and with a good race plan do a bit better on the 2k, but it won't get much better until the 500m time improves. Good on you for the 500m and then going after the 1k, but that would have been similar to trying the 500m again, which you did. Max efforts will be tough to repeat in the same hour, even the same day is pushing it, though the shorter the distance the shorter the recovery time. I.e. a HM Max could take weeks to fully recover from.

So I take it you would recommend 500m intervals.

My strength in college rowing and as a bike racer was my ability to due intervals and go hard repeatedly. But I haven't done many intervals recently in many years. Last couple of years, I just haven't had the fitness to do them. I haven't "trained" in years. I've just been going out to have fun. Seting a goal of a 2:00 pace for a marathon on the ERG has lead me to actually thing about a program and train for something.

My wife is amused, as she said, it cheeper then buying a porche.
(BTW you quoted me just after I posted and did another edit hence the small discrepancies between your quote and my post)

I'm off. Have a good weekend all.

[Bob S.]

If we choose a refernce pace P for 2000m the pace for other distances are:
500m P - 10
1000m P - 5
2000m P
5000m P + 6.6
6000m P + 7.9
10000m P + 11.6
21097m P + 17
421095 P + 22

This aroused my curiosity, so I checked my own recent scores to see how they match. These were all done at 4000ft and all but the marathon (done in March of 2006) were done this season.

Based on my very best 2k time at this altitude, 8:17.1, P=2:04.3.

500m P - 11.6 This one was done in the middle of a bunch of 1k intervals.
1K P - 3.3
5K P + 4.8
6K P + 5.3
10K P + 9.3
HM P + 9.2 And, yes, the first 10K of that piece was about 3.4 seconds faster than my best stand alone 10K for this season. I should improve my nonathlon scores by putting that faster one in. My last season 10K was considerably better.
FM P + 17.0 That's my one and only FM, so I think that I should be able to improve it — butt willing.

All of this seems to indicate that my best 2k was a crap effort, but I remember it as all out, and the tank was definitely empty when I finished— much more so than at my recent sub-8' at sealevel. My other 2k attempts here have been worse.

Bob S.

[PaulS]

So your 2k falls right in line with the power that you have, right up to the 5k, then your endurance is considerably working to your benefit. I'd guess that you could take advantage of your endurance and with a good race plan do a bit better on the 2k, but it won't get much better until the 500m time improves. Good on you for the 500m and then going after the 1k, but that would have been similar to trying the 500m again, which you did. Max efforts will be tough to repeat in the same hour, even the same day is pushing it, though the shorter the distance the shorter the recovery time. I.e. a HM Max could take weeks to fully recover from.

So I take it you would recommend 500m intervals.

I'm off. Have a good weekend all.

Perhaps even 5 x 300m x 1:00r to start with, with the goal of starting a bit above 500m PB pace (+3) and working down through it during the set (-1). Once that can be done, adjust the starting interval pace and work it again. Sandwich those intervals inbetween a pair of moderate 3k to 4k's once a week and see how it goes.