Ranger's training thread

[Brunsie]

As the years roll by, this situation gets pathetically redundant.

Yea.

A lot of people think that extensive training is "pathetically redundant."

Oh well.

To each his own.

Those who don't like training don't have to do it.

No one is making them.

If they have a better time watching NETFLIX, hey, that's _their_ business.

Personally, I like training.

I am surprised to hear that you don't.

ranger

You make out that Mike said that "extensive training" is pathetically redundant, I don't think he said that at all, to me he said all this talk is pathetically redundant and I think you know that is what he said. By you trying to make him look like an ass makes you look like the ass.

[Brunsie]

Mike VB--

If you are really pulling 9 SPI OTErg, 1:58 @ 23 spm and the like, you must be doing a whole bunch of things wretchedly wrong.

You are only taking 2/3 of a stroke.

You are missing rowing well by 4 SPI--at 23 spm, by 13 seconds per 500m.

Post a video of your erging, 1:58 @ 23 spm (9 SPI), let's see what you are doing wrong.

Perhaps my coach can give you some help.

How can your coach be missing these things?

ranger

So by your assertion Mike can increase his power 50% from where he is now simply by adjusting his technique. For that matter I guess you are saying that every veteran rower, now and for all of rowing history has had such poor technique that the same would be true of them. I would be fascinated to see the science behind this as a 50% improvement from the best that all the history of veteran rowers have been able to generate by simply changing up technique is beyond my imagination. My god, change the way you use all those small muscles and have it equal 50% of the combination of pretty much every major muscle in the body except the pecks. Please explain the science to me.

[Brunsie]

Your hwt 6:30 in 2006 is now five long years in the past. Nothing remotely like it since.

Tires and batteries are pretty inexpensive parts of a car, but a car doesn't run at all when they are flat/dead.


ranger

My car runs when my tires are flat.

[Brunsie]

Once again, you've *demonstrated* no improvement at all as a result of your work on technique.

Nope.

My technical progress has been steady and is now complete.


ranger

You mean complete "again", for what to 20th, 30th, 40th time, I have no idea how many time is has been complete nor do I have any idea how many more time it will become complete.

[ranger]

MIke VB--

In order to row well OTErg, you need to pull 1:48 @ 21 spm (13 SPI) at UT2, steady state, not 2:03 @ 21 spm (9 SPI).

The difference is 15 seconds per 500m, 4 SPI, etc.

So, what's the problem.

Post a video of your erging, 2:02 @ 21 spm.

Let's see if we can help you.

You must be missing about a third of these things, 7 out of 21?

(1) Get good length. Get all the way to shins vertical at the catch. The front of your seat should be only six inches from front stops when you fire off with your legs.

(2) Keep your hips/back forward at a good angle when you fire off with your legs. Hold that angle until your legs are done. At this point, the handle should be over your feet.

(3) Get your weight securely up on the balls of your feet at the catch, driving with your quads. Do _not_ take the catch with your heels and hams.

(4) Relax your shoulders at the catch.

(5) Relax your core at the catch.

(6) After about .1 seconds set your heels and stand up on the footplate, flattening your legs out with your hams. As in (2), at this point, the handle should be over your feet.

(7) Open your hips and swing your back with your core.

(8) While you are swinging your back, roll back up onto the balls of your feet and drive down on the footplate with the front of your foot using your calves.

(9) Keep your shoulders relaxed even though you have engaged your core, back, and calves.

(10) Pull through with your arms into your chest.

(11) Keep your elbows level as you pull the handle into your chest.

(12) Get a substantial lean with your back at the finish.

(13) Keep in good contact with the footplate at the finish. Point your toes and push the footplate away from you by digging in with your toes.

(14) Recover your arms as quickly as they finish.

(15) When you recover your arms, sit up tall and push the handle down toward your knees.

(16) Keep your knees flat on the rail until the handle sweeps past them.

(17) Recover your back as quick and fully as you did when you engaged it in the drive, returning to shins vertical (Prep Position). As in (2) and (6), at this point the handle should be over your feet, legs flat on the rail.

(18) The movements from (1) to (16) should be _very_ fast, 3/8 of the stroke cycle, at the most. If you count "And-ONE-and-TWO-and-THREE-and-FOUR" as you do the stroke cycle as a whole, execute the movements from (1) to (16) in the first three pulses of this counting/beating: "And-ONE-and."

(19) Set you heels firmly when as you get into prep position.

(20) Break your knees and move the seat slowly toward the catch.

(21) As you do this, roll your weight slowly from your heels to the balls of your feet.

ranger

[Brunsie]

Once again, though, I invite you to post *anything* that proves us wrong

I have posted a constant stream of video and race results that prove you wrong already, before the real proof even arrives.

ranger

I must have missed this "constant stream", I have seen evidence of world record rows before Ranger headed down this path of "technically" perfecting his stroke in order to completely change the standards for veteran rowers however I missed all those records he set after he perfected his stroke, could someone please point me to those. I have seen a couple videos that showed a few strokes but I missed those that showed the desired final outcome so some help pointing me to those would also be appreciated. Ha Ha, Har Har. Seriously if I have indeed missed something I apologize, I really don't think I have but I have only been following this since Dec 2010 so it is possible.

[Brunsie]

No, because all of those things were done before your work on technique got seriously underway.

Absolutely not.

These things were done three and four _years_ after I started to work on technique.

In 2003, I couldn't have pulled 500r30 @ 1:30, a 2K @ 12 SPI, etc., if my life depended on it.

My early work on technique was on effectivenss, taking strong strokes.

This involved issues of quickness, timing, sequencing, leveraging, balance, etc.

My recent work on technique has been efficiency, rowing well _easily_.

This has involved issues of length, drag, recoveries, slide control, preparation, relaxation, posture, angles of leverage, etc.

ranger

I guess my last post was a premature. So from this I can take that Rangers early training on technique was mildly successful however it appears since 2003 in must have been a failure.

[mikvan52]

I imagine (IN TRACK AND FIELD) that ranger would criticize the atlete who throws himself at the finish line... => for taking a "bad stride" The runner with the best stride wins

I don't see any parallel at all, really, between rowing and running.

This is why you were an average marathon runner and it's why you remain a novice sculler.
It is why you think any form that produces a fast 2k erg also moves a boat well.

IOW: You know so little you should be holding forth about these subjects.

[ranger]

I missed all those records he set after he perfected his stroke

Haven't tried yet.

I am just beginning my race preparation.

Race preparation goes from the top down, from a FM to 500m.

My first result will be a FM @ 1:48.

That will predict all of my other targets--including a 6:16 2K.

ranger

[ranger]

It is why you think any form that produces a fast 2k erg also moves a boat well.

Nope, just the other way around.

The best scullers are also the best at 2K OTErg.

A good OTW stroke is also the most effective and efficient stroke OTErg.

OTW, you are 15 seconds per 500m slower over 2K/5K than the best young scullers.

Why?

OTErg, you are also 15 seconds per 500m slower over 2K/5K than the best young scullers.

Why?

Is it (1) that you don't row well or (2) that you can't rate up?

ranger

[Brunsie]

It doesn't matter how elegant your stroke curve was

Elegant?

The issues are effectiveness and efficiency.

ranger

I am no expert but I would be surprised if this is always true. My bet would be there are times when someone simply overpowers others with more effective and efficient strokes.

I am certainly not advocating that is the way to go about it but the way the world works, that happens sometimes. In fact the way you talk about things I have a feeling your early success was probably you overpowering people that had a more effective and efficient stroke than you since you were such a beginner at that time.

[ranger]

I have a feeling your early success was probably you overpowering people that had a more effective and efficient stroke than you since you were such a beginner at that time.

Nope.

The opposite.

I just used my physical capacity.

I rowed like hell.

And as it turns out, the 50s lwt WR has been lowered by those who rowed better.

6:16 at 60, though, rowing well (13 SPI) at low drag (120 df.) would be a different matter.

Even with a minimal .5 seconds over 2K decline with age per year, that would imply something like 6:11 for me, if I had rowed well at 50.

If this is the scenario, the difference between rowing well and rowing poorly is right around 4 seconds per 500m, sixteen seconds, over 2K.

That has always seemed just about right to me, as I have mentioned on this forum zillions of times.

ranger

[Brunsie]

I posted the screen shots on this forum.

ranger

Your screen shots from recent history do not show you doing this. What you could do in 2003 is irrelevant to 2011. You may be able to do the same, may do better, may do worse but until you show us no one will know.

Which by the way is just they way you want it and of the three possibilities there is only one possibility that you would prefer us to not know and that explains a lot.

[ranger]

You may be able to do the same, may do better, may do worse but until you show us no one will know.

Nope.

As I have just mentioned several times, preliminary results have been coming up all along the line.

Sure, you can wait for final results before you recognize an effective training method, but that doesn't have anything to do with training.

Once you have a final result, your training is over, and probably has been over for some time.

You can't get a desired result unless you train for it.

But if you wait to decide what to do until you have a final result, you will never do anything, because you had no idea how to train for it and therefore will never have a final result.

ranger

[mikvan52]

... and:

Did you answer why the Sydney Gold Medal French 2- won with lower spi?

No.