Train With Xeno

wbulr · Post by **wbulr** » January 19th, 2008, 8:59 pm

I know that he is much stronger that I ever hope to be. I have been a cyclist for years and am trying to relate to that. For instance if I'm riding with someone in the same gear ratio and the same cadence then we will be traveling at the same speed. One of us may be working harder because of weight or wind but we will be at the same speed. I was thinking that drag may somehow relate to the gearing on a bicycle but I think that I'm understanding that increased stroke rate does not mean increased speed on the rower. I need more power on each stroke - not worrying about the stroke rate.

philrow · Post by **philrow** » January 19th, 2008, 11:07 pm

That's interesting about cycling at the same gear and cadence. Unfortunately, I don't think that parallels the erg. For example, Xeno might row at a 120 drag factor, and I might also row at a 120, but that really is not indication that we'll go as fast as each other, even at, say, 28spm.

I'm not sure if gears on a cycle would indicate "resistance," per se, but that's pretty much what I relate with damper setting. The stereotype is that smaller high-endurance rowers will row with a low drag and higher cadence, and that bigger high-power rowers (more like Xeno) will use higher drag and a slower stroke rating. Although, I presume Xeno and of course other elite rowers can combine high stroke with high power.

A higher stroke rate potentially means more speed on the erg. For example, I rowed a 5k distance at 28spm and a slower speed, and a 2k at 33-36spm at a faster speed. I imagine it would be impossible for me to row the same 2k time at 28spm rather than 33-36spm. Also, back when I was still learning to row, I pulled a 2k at 26spm. Little did I realize that I could really pick up the speed just by increasing my stroke into what seemed at the time to be an ungodly 30+spm.

Phil

wbulr · Post by **wbulr** » January 20th, 2008, 10:29 am

Phil -

Thanks for the info - it has been helpful. I understand (somewhat) how the damper works. How do you determing 'drag factor'?

philrow · Post by **philrow** » January 20th, 2008, 4:34 pm

Ahh, sorry, I should've clarified that sooner. The damper really provides a subjective measure of resistance, whereas the drag factor is an objective measure. For example, damper setting "10" may not have the same drag factor as damper setting "10" on a different erg, due to maintenance, manufacturing, etc. At my school, with decent ergs, the drag factor at damper 10 is about 220, but on a terrible run-down erg at the gym by my house, damper 10 is about drag factor 90.

Because you're on a model B, I actually am not sure how to determine drag factor. Do you happen to have a PM3 or PM4 monitor on it? If so, then if you search around under "More Information," then you should be able to find a "determine drag factor" option or something like that. Otherwise, I don't know how a monitor on a model B works!

Phil

almostflipped · Post by **almostflipped** » January 20th, 2008, 8:59 pm

I know that he is much stronger that I ever hope to be. I have been a cyclist for years and am trying to relate to that

Ahh, gotcha. My understanding of the physics of the erg are not perfect but I believe this may be closer to the answer you are looking for. The drag factor is a measure of how quickly the fan wheel is going to slow down during the recovery. In contrast the splits you see are a measure of the acceleration of the fan during the drive (or the peak maximal speed, I forget which). As such it doesn't particularly matter how much the wheel has slowed down during the recovery, only how much you can speed it back up during the drive.

Stronger athletes often use a higher drag factor as it allows them to use their full strength. A lighter feel would not provide enough resistance to allow them to use all their strength without firing their muscles in a very fast manner (and with practice most can do this). In contrast, smaller athletes tend not to be strong enough to handle the higher resistance so they use a lower fan speed and apply a higher rating to maintain fan speed and not overload muscles. In each case the athlete could be hitting the same peak acceleration or maximal fan speed during the drive, just using a different method to get there. This also explains the advantage of the higher rating. By taking more strokes, potentially with a little less power, you do not allow the fan wheel to slow down as much and potentially can achieve a higher average max wheel speed. However, there is a balance between power and rating whereby increasing rating in and of itself may not actually decrease the splits as you are not able to produce power in a quick enough fashion to maintain wheel speed. Example: I usually hit my low pull in the mid to high forties. Beyond that my splits begin to slow down as I cannot engage my muscles fast enough to keep pressure on the handle and maintain a long stroke. In contrast I have had teammates go into the fifties and their splits kept going down.

As for how to set drag factor on a model B, I really don't remember. It's been years since I used one and I don't think it was an option to see it. My suggestion would be to play around with the various gears and damper settings and just find a combination that is comfortable for you. Preferably you should feel resistance without a feeling that your back is being overly taxed.

Jamie Pfeffer · Post by **Jamie Pfeffer** » January 21st, 2008, 10:12 pm

Monday's Workout: 5x15 Minutes
1. Pace: 1:49.2; Agv Stroke Rate: 26; End HR: 153
2. 1:49.2; 26; 151
3. 1:48.8; 27; 149
4. 1:47.6; 28; 153
5. 1:46.4; 28; 158

Totals:
Average Pace: 1:48.4
Average Watts: 275.0
Average M/P/S: 10.3
Average Stroke Rate: 27
Ending Heart Rate: 158

Jamie Pfeffer · Post by **Jamie Pfeffer** » January 22nd, 2008, 12:05 pm

Tuesday's Workout: 90-Minute row (comprised 4x Xeno's 19-minute pyramid DVD: 4'22; 3'24; 2'26; 1'28; 2'26; 3'24; 4'22) (steady state or easy for the other 14 minutes.

Total Meters: 23,011
Avg. Pace: 1:57.3
Avg. M/P/S: 11.3
Avg. Watts: 216.7
Avg Stroke Rate: 23
Total Cals: 1568 (seems way too high to me)

RowtheRockies · Post by **RowtheRockies** » January 23rd, 2008, 4:45 pm

Jamie,

I have a question for you about Xeno's 19' pyramids. I did two of them today except I used 20, 22, 24, 26 because I decided to do the workout on the way home and was not able to verify the actual protocol. Turns out that I averaged 2:02.4 r22 which is probablly close to what I would row a SS r22 for 10K. What is the difference between the two workouts? Is one better than the other for training effect? Do they each have a different place in a weekly training plan or are the interchangeable?

I sure preferred doing the pyramid over a ss r22 from a mental aspect. I can see how doing it at 22,24,26,28 would end up being a much tougher workout.

Rich

m.calvin · Post by **m.calvin** » January 24th, 2008, 7:16 pm

Well coming up to my first 2k test in six months and not looking forward to it at all! Alow I have pulled another pb on the 80mins, at 201.7.
Injoying the training. A fresh approach for me.

ROWTHEROCKIES
That looks bloody impressive, wouldnt like to walk the incline after a few beers!

RowtheRockies · Post by **RowtheRockies** » January 24th, 2008, 7:44 pm

m.calvin,

Good Luck on your 2K!

Yes, that would be a waste of good beer as I am sure it would no longer be in your stomach by the time you reached the top of the Incline..

Rich

philrow · Post by **philrow** » January 24th, 2008, 9:10 pm

short on time between classes, what else is new:
1000m warm-up strapless
3x7':
22-24-26 3'2'2'
6' paddle/stretch/water
24-26-28 3'2'2'
6' paddle/stretch/water
26-28-30-32 3'2'1'1'
1000m cool-down strapless

6710m intervals total, ~1800 +/- per piece

Rich,

What do you mean are the two workouts interchangeable? From my experience, Xeno doesn't prescribe 10k rows -- in fact, out of sheer madness, he recommends at least 16k+, at least for these winter months. But, the 3x19' workout is once a week every two weeks, again at least for this winter. It starts at 18spm.

I think this pyramid is great mentally.

Phil

RowtheRockies · Post by **RowtheRockies** » January 25th, 2008, 10:20 am

Phil,

I was not very clear. I was not talking about the 10K and the '19 pyramid in the context of Xeno's full plan. I wish I had time for a 16K row but have 1 hour a day to workout. Just enough time to get home from work, change row 10K, Shower and get back to work. OK, it's really a long lunch ~1' 20 but don't tell my employer that

My question was more about the training effect of a Steady State row at say r 22 that I average 2:02.4 or two '19 pyramids that I average 2:02.4 but have segments that are higher and lower than 2:02.4. Is one better than the other?

Rich

m.calvin · Post by **m.calvin** » January 26th, 2008, 12:58 pm

Well, just pulled a pb and nothing to spare

6.55.7 Rate 31

Lost it in the last 500

Good luck to all those doing 2k test today and tomorrow

Stefan · Post by **Stefan** » January 26th, 2008, 2:00 pm

m.calvin wrote:Well, just pulled a pb and nothing to spare

6.55.7 Rate 31

Lost it in the last 500

You can not totally have lost it and still goten a PB. Well done!

m.calvin · Post by **m.calvin** » January 26th, 2008, 3:04 pm

LOL, Yes you are right, but I was sitting at 1.43 splits for the first 1500 and only finished at 1.45 in the last, so could have been 6.52-53.
But yes three seconds faster than my last 2k(which was a pb, 6.58)

Thanks