Problems with rowing and can't pinpoint the cause yet...

[Shrogran]

Good to see you're enjoying yourself on the pixel river!

One thing you may want to consider. You are comparing your latest row against your previous PB, this is like comparing apples with oranges. Doing a controlled sub maximal row at 22 SPM building your pace from 2:11 upwards is not the same thing as going all out at 27 SPM and being exhausted at the end. A few more rows at low rate building a better stroke (after a proper warm up) will soon see you below 20:00 mins for the 5k. A good target would be to aim for 2:00 / 500m at R20 - looking at your recent improvement it won't take long. The trick then is to increase your stroke rate (whilst maintain the same power per stroke) back up to 27 SPM (or possibly less) and push all out to set a PB.

Hence the reason why people do long steady state - e.g. 30-60 mins at 20 -22 SPM at 2:00 / 500m, then shorter workouts at higher SPM and faster pace. You build the power of your stroke doing longer, slower workouts so when the time comes to have a crack at a 5k TT holding 25-27 SPM at 10 W' per stroke (equivalent to 2:00 / 500m - 20 SPM) for under 20 minutes it won't feel so bad. Well it might! But at least you'll be better prepared.

Bottom line - don't race your training. Train, build the power of your stroke and then TT once a week or every 2 weeks. Once you see progress you inherently begin to get a sense of where you are for a distance and will likely feel less of a need to TT all the time to get confirmation.

It felt great to be rowing without getting frustrated. When i got into that smooth gliding zone, i was smiling all over.

Ah, i think i may have caused some confusion by not explaining enough. I compared it to my last finished 5k row that i actually finished (there are at least 6 attempts after that where i quit). It just happened to be my PB. I found it very surprising that with the new style i as not even that far off my PB without falling dead off my erg. If i would have started normally after a proper warmup i would have probably equalled it.
I was not out for racing against my PB. I popped online, was able to join a 5k. During the 5k i noticed how relatively easy i was hitting 2:03 per 500m and then, as i felt pretty good and comfortable, just kept rowing as i felt.
I guess i just wrote it down a bit unlucky making people think i was racing against my PB. that was certainly not the case. I just felt great during the 5k so i went faster then i originally intended to do so.

I am certainly going to build on the low drag low rate. I totally enjoy this. I feel less rushed. I just need to get a 'feel' for it. If i dont focus and check occasionally, i will go to around 23 strokes. If i 'zone myself in' and focus, i hit 20-21 like clockwork. (Watching that Zac Purchase video is GOLD for me). Hopefully this will turn into an automatic feel in time.

Your point is well taken. I apologize for the confusion. Reading back my own post, i can see how you would think i raced it. I did a race and it went well, i wasnt racing against anything or anybody.

[Shrogran]

I have a day off and what a day it has been. Awesome.
I started off with cleaning my erg; maintanence is key.
As i had the whole day i took my time to prepare myself. Stretching some, foamrolling, warming up nicely. I promised myself to start a distance, do it low drag low rate and finish it regardless of time. Whatever happens, happens. Finish and learn.
Started off with 1k strapless. Didnt go as well as i had hoped, but i did not let that get to me. Things will go up and down. So shake it off and keep going.
Decided to row against my last 5k. Wanted to give the 2:00 / 500m for a longer period a good try.
Damper on 4 again.
Target one: focus on the stroke foremost. Target two: keep strokes as low as the previous time. Target three: finish if you can. if not, dont let it bother you.
And it went wonderful.

Previous 5k; first time i succeeded in keeping low stroke rate:

1 1:06.5 250 2:13.0 10.3 148.8 15 22
2 1:05.3 250 2:10.6 10.9 157.1 15 21
3 1:04.5 250 2:09.0 11.1 163 15 21
4 1:04.8 250 2:09.6 11.6 160.8 15 20
5 1:02.8 250 2:05.6 11.4 176.6 16 21
6 1:02.0 250 2:04.0 11.5 183.6 16 21
7 1:01.3 250 2:02.6 11.1 189.9 16 22
8 1:01.7 250 2:03.4 11.6 186.3 16 21
9 1:01.8 250 2:03.6 12.1 185.4 16 20
10 1:01.2 250 2:02.4 10.7 190.9 16 23
11 1:01.0 250 2:02.0 10.7 192.7 16 23
12 1:01.2 250 2:02.4 10.7 190.9 16 23
13 1:01.5 250 2:03.0 11.1 188.1 16 22
14 1:01.0 250 2:02.0 11.2 192.7 16 22
15 1:00.6 250 2:01.2 11.3 196.6 16 22
16 1:00.8 250 2:01.6 10.7 194.7 16 23
17 1:00.6 250 2:01.2 10.8 196.6 16 23
18 1:00.5 250 2:01.0 10.8 197.6 16 23
19 0:59.0 250 1:58.0 10.6 213 17 24
20 0:54.6 250 1:49.2 10.6 268.8 19 26
Totals 20:32.7 5000 2:03.3 186.9 323 22

Today:

1 1:01.2 250 2:02.4 11.1 190.9 16 22
2 1:00.7 250 2:01.4 11.8 195.6 16 21
3 1:01.1 250 2:02.2 11.7 191.8 16 21
4 1:00.7 250 2:01.4 11.8 195.6 16 21
5 1:01.1 250 2:02.2 11.7 191.8 16 21
6 1:01.0 250 2:02.0 11.7 192.7 16 21
7 1:00.3 250 2:00.6 11.3 199.5 17 22
8 1:00.6 250 2:01.2 11.8 196.6 16 21
9 1:00.4 250 2:00.8 11.3 198.5 16 22
10 1:00.5 250 2:01.0 11.8 197.6 16 21
11 1:00.1 250 2:00.2 11.3 201.5 17 22
12 1:00.1 250 2:00.2 11.3 201.5 17 22
13 1:00.2 250 2:00.4 11.3 200.5 17 22
14 1:00.4 250 2:00.8 10.8 198.5 16 23
15 0:59.7 250 1:59.4 11.4 205.6 17 22
16 1:00.2 250 2:00.4 11.3 200.5 17 22
17 1:00.2 250 2:00.4 11.3 200.5 17 22
18 0:59.5 250 1:59.0 11 207.7 17 23
19 0:58.8 250 1:57.6 11.1 215.2 17 23
20 0:56.8 250 1:53.6 11.5 238.7 18 23
Totals 20:03.5 5000 2:00.4 200.8 331 22

I started off a bit conservative, letting myself fall into a rythm. It came pretty quick. After 1/3 of the distance i tried lowering it a bit and that also went well. At around half the distance i already knew i was finishing this one, plenty left in the tank. I kept calm, mimicked Zac Purchase on the monitor as well as i could. Last 750 meters i tried speeding up without letting stroke rate go up like the last time. I only added 1 stroke to my average while speeding up nicely.
As for effort: sure, this was hard training, but i could have kept up the 2:00 / 500m pace for at least another 1000 meters, i estimate. I was in a zone and when i am there, i can go on for a long time.

So. Here i sit, smiling and sweating. I succeeded in 5k at ALMOST 2:00 / 500m at low stroke rate low drag. Damper was at 4; forgot to check DF, but should have been around 120 i think.

Did i mention it is a PB too? Lol. I took 10 seconds of my PB and i didnt even realize it. When i did that PB, i couldnt walk and speak for 10 minutes, felt like puking. This time i sure was tired, but in a 'good training session way' and felt my breath and heart rate come down quickly when the row was finished.

I feel like a million bucks bu i will try not to get carried away by this and keep working at it. For the next few sessions i will keep working at stroke, stroke rate and falling into the rythm.
I want my strokes to be more consistent and the pace times too. There is still some spread in that, so i can also improve in being more consistent in the stroke.

[Shrogran]

I'll keep it short this time.
Progress is being made. Last few sessions (all 1 and 2k 's) went pretty okay. Happy i see less and less 'flutter' in my numbers.

Today:
The warmup strapless went better even tho i still want it more constant in time and stroke. But it felt good. Only got off the footrests 2-3 times for the 1k i did it.
Then went for a 2k with someone online. Went great. I still need to get more constant in the strokes and pace. She wanted someone to pace her at around 1:58. Gave it a go, went fairly easy and ended up 'the winner' (whatever that is) and did another PB: 1.55.5 / 500m, ending in 7:42.1. Stroke rate 23. Went easily below 1:50 for the last 200m.
Then 2k cooling down. Pretty happy with that one. Numbers look fairly constant there.

I cant thank everyone who responded to my cry for help enough. There is still such a long way to go. But there is SUCH a difference in my stroke now. Few weeks ago i kept struggling at pace 2:03 for extended periods. Now i can actually start to pick my stroke and set the pace a bit already. And anywhere around 2:00 per 500m is pretty much for up to 5k at least.

Will go for 30 minutes tomorrow, i think. Trying to set an easy pace of 2:03 and hopefully be able to keep the strokes and pace as constant as i can.

What would be an acceptable range of fluctuation on stroke rate and pace for someone like me? stroke 21-23 and pace 2:05 - 2:01 maybe? Or is that still too much 'all over the place'?

[hjs]

Re fluctuation. Say you aim for 22, the range should be 21/23, that is really not that far off. If you don,t its more concentration lose.
Pacing should be within 3 seconds orso.

Congrets on the 2k pb. But if you really go for a pb, rating should be aimed a lot higher. For training lower rates are fine, for TT they are not. And for real sprinting, 40 plus is needed 500 and less at max.

You soon will be sub 20 on the 5k

[Shrogran]

Thanks for the reply.
Okay, so i think stroke rate is going pretty okay already. I will put more focus on the pacing, cause the 3 seconds.... not always making that, honestly. It will come in time, i am sure. Getting used to the new technique pretty quickly.

Yeah, i didnt even push for a PR. I was just being the paceboat at what i initially thought was a rate that would be a nice challenge. But i was able to stay in front, even as my rowing partner accelarated a bit and kept staying in front. Even during the last 200 m sprint. So i am getting curious to what i should be capable of in a couple of weeks. I already have two new PR's by just training hard and staying focussed.
For now, i will keep doing what i am doing right now cause i enjoy it a LOT. Its a great feeling when you start to zone into a gliding stroke (best i can explain it for me).
When i will go for a serious try (in about 3 weeks i guess) i have thought about starting at 24 strokes and ramping it up to 26 in the end. Starting at record pace, hanging in there (even if there is more in the tank), then hammer down on the last third of the race. Does that sound like a good plan?

Not sure if i will try another 500m soon. Not that interested in the short distances.

Regarding the 5k: just 3.5 seconds and i will be sub 20. YAY.

[Shrogran]

Cant be great every session.
After yesterdays rowing (a new PB on 2K) i did my squats and frontsquats. Woke up pretty sore in the legs, so even tho i feel great, i tempered my expectations.

1K strapless: awesome. Almost no loss of contact with the footrests, even when i play with changes in pace and drive

Decided to do a 30 min row with as main target: row as smooth as i can. Tried using music for this. If i couldnt finish it because of soreness and not being into it, i promised myself to suck it up and drop the handle without shame. Its training.
Pretty pleased with the result. It felt kinda up and down, but the numbers prove otherwise.
I stopped at approx. 4700 meters as i was just not getting into it. Legs felt like clay. But the result was pretty good. Here are the numbers:

1 1:30.0 374 2:00.3 10.8 200.9 25 23
2 1:30.0 372 2:01.0 11.3 197.7 25 22
3 1:30.0 372 2:01.0 11.3 197.7 25 22
4 1:30.0 377 1:59.4 10.9 205.8 25 23
5 1:30.0 376 1:59.7 11.4 204.2 25 22
6 1:30.0 375 2:00.0 10.9 202.5 25 23
7 1:30.0 376 1:59.7 10.9 204.2 25 23
8 1:30.0 377 1:59.4 11.4 205.8 25 22
9 1:30.0 378 1:59.0 11.5 207.4 25 22
10 1:30.0 370 2:01.6 10.7 194.6 24 23
11 1:30.0 375 2:00.0 10.9 202.5 25 23
12 1:30.0 375 2:00.0 10.9 202.5 25 23
13 1:11.7 271 2:12.3 151.2 16
Totals 19:11.7 4768 2:00.8 198.7 315 21

Next time i will repeat this.

I will look upon this with different attitude: i did not fail a 30 min row (negative), i succeeded in my initial goal for 4700 meters at a good pace (positive).

[Shrogran]

Repeat of last time: 30 minutes of steady state.
Tried to forget about preset numbers: in the first few 100 meters i 'felt' for a pace and tried to keep it. Turned out to be around 2:01 at 22 strokes.
Went outstanding. Wont bore you all with the readout of my RowPro but it was all very stable. 2:02 - 2:01 at 21-22 strokes per 500 meter for first 15 minutes, then around 2:00 for 22-23 the last 15 minutes. Last 500 meters at 1:56 with still 23 strokes. Even DPS was rather stable at around 11 meters.

So i ended up with 7422 meters in 30 minutes, easily beating my previous best by 125 meters.
Training is progressing well, i think. It FEELS a lot better. I am ofcourse tired after a row, its a workout after all, but not totally devastated like i used to be.

[DanielJ]

I'd like to chime in since I too have only really been concentrating on my stroke rates relatively recently, despite having been rowing for more than a year.

22 spm seems quite low to me for a 5k if you're going for a PB-type time. If you recover and catch faster, the flywheel will have less time to slow down and it'll feel easier to maintain the /500m speed stroke after stroke. I like to watch videos of top rowers rowing at different spm levels - not so much to copy their technique; more to get a feel for the motion timing of, say, good 24 spm rowing, good 26 spm rowing etc. Then you can try it yourself - perhaps for little 100m+ bursts here and there, being sure to maintain the stroke, keep the quads working, the back sturdy etc. I think a sub-19:30 5k time will come quite soon when you put that together.

Judging by your 30-minutes PB, I think we're at about the same fitness level - perhaps you're a bit fitter. It'll be fun to see which one of us makes 8k in 30 minutes first.

[Bob S.]

22 spm seems quite low to me for a 5k if you're going for a PB-type time. If you recover and catch faster, the flywheel will have less time to slow down and it'll feel easier to maintain the /500m speed stroke after stroke.

It depends on the purpose of the workout. If he was doing it strictly to improve on his PB, what you say is true. If it was intended to be a controlled workout for training, he was doing it the right way, and the fact that it happened to result in a PB as well is just icing on the cake. In most training programs, time trials and PB attempts are not scheduled very often. In a period of training, they just take time away from productive work. They are usually done at well space intervals as a measure of progress of the training.

Bob S.

[Shrogran]

DanielJ and Bob S.

Everything i have done lately is training, focussing on lowering my urge to go for high stroke rates at high damper.
So every PB lately is unintentional, i was not going for it. Ofcourse i do know where my PB are, so when they are in sight, i am not slowing down if it is well within my capabilities to do so.
But like the previous 30 min where i put the handle down? I was even at a faster pace then this one. But i stopped as i was too sore from squatting. I noticed myself forcing the stroke instead of gliding. It took a blow to the ego, but if i wanna improve my form, i knew i had to quit.
Does not mean that i row these new times extremely easy ofcourse. Training is training, it takes effort. But all is done with three main targets in mind, nothing else. First form, second consistency in stroke. These two should lead to a new base stamina also. That is also why i watch the videos. My stroke was very inefficient. I mimic Zac cause he has great form, i didnt, stroking at nearly 28 and barely using my legs. Third is making it fun again. I got too frustrated lately. I felt ashamed when putting my handle down or rowing off my desired pace. I refuse to feel that way anymore.
A good example is that previous 30 min. Very smooth, very consistent in stroke, very good pace for me. But i put the handle down when i couldnt cope with the soreness anymore and started to force the pace. I couldnt maintain in proper form. BUT i look upon it as a great 4700 meter row, NOT a failed 30 minutes.

Anyhow, i am having a total blast on the erg lately again. Finally i feel that i am starting to really row. I owe this to all who answered and put in their tips, tricks and wisdom. I cant thank you all enough.
I am very curious what will happen if i try to give a distance like a 2k a real effort soon. Not sure if it will be a lot faster then now. I know from experience that i am the type of person that can train very well, but does not have extreme maxes. A real diesel. But i should be in the "below 20 minutes" club with relative ease.

Once again, i thank you all.

[Shrogran]

Progress is still being made.
Got online and found a fellow rowster. She wanted to do 10k at 16-19; pace 2:10
Thought it would be interesting to see if i could keep a very low pace also. I was thinking of aiming for 2:05

Warmup went well, felt very immortal after that. Reality proved to me there is no such thing as that =)

The first 2.5k i was at stroke 18-19, pace not very constant. 2:01-2:07. Tried to alter it.
Second 2.5k: pace nicely constant at 2:01-2:03 at 20-21. But felt i could not keep this up long. So altered it again.
Rest of race: 2:03-2:04 at 21-22. I was VERY happy to notice i was recovering during this.

Good exercise. Too bad the base is not there yet to keep mauling 2:01-2:03 for a whole 10k. But i am def getting more power in the stroke, i find my rythm soon when i start paddling AND i appear to be able to 'play' with my rate and pace if the going gets a bit tough.

I am MIGHTY pleased with this one. Looking at the session report of Rowpro, its actually not that uneven as i felt it was.
Noticed to my surprise after this workout that it is another PB... i took 33 seconds of my previous time.

41:08.6 at 21 strokes, pace 2:03.4. Avg watts: 186.1

Off to do my deadlifts now.

[Shrogran]

Guess i am getting the hang of this new technique. Thought i would wake up feeling at least a bit fatigued, but felt totally brand new.
So decided to give myself a good test. The longer pieces have been a real torture a few weeks ago. So i peptalked myself into a 60 minute set. Goal same as ever; training on consistent and powerfull strokes at low drag.
Very surprised to say it went a lot easier then i thought. I would have put my money on a 'handle down' again, considering i did a new pb in training on the 10k yesterday. I will admit i had a struggle with myself around halfway through the set. Butt went a bit numb and sore and that was very distracting. Nothing new tho, had that before on longer sets. Sucked it up and kept at it, despite that inner voice that told me i was not going to keep this up. Proved that silly voice wrong.

Solid result. Up to the last 750 meters it is all 20-22 strokes at 2:05-2:07 pace. Had still some left in the tank so the last bit wen int 1:59.7 at 24.
Beat my previous best with 333 meters, ending up rowing 14275 meters in total. Within minutes of getting off the erg breath and heartrate settled down to normal.

I cant believe that a few weeks ago i kept attacking pr's all over the place and ended up dropping the handle almnost every day. Now i am just training hard on the new form and end up destroying all my numbers. What a difference.

So, what is the next wise step to take? My gut tells me to keep at this for at least a couple of weeks more at longer distances then what i did a few weeks ago (i would mostly do 2-4 k per session). If i can keep consistent with the pulls and get better at it, my pace should get better also. This would build a better base.
Maybe go for a serious new PR attempt somewhere in the beginning of januari then? See what this has brought me?

[Shrogran]

To increase my amount of km's per month i also enlisted in the Holiday Challenge. If i row 100k before 25 december Concept2 will donate a certain amount to a charity.
Figures that would be the least i could do. Make miles and make it count for others who are far worse off than me.
With the amount of practise i am putting in i am well under way already.
Felt kinda fatigued today, so did a recovery row. 30 minutes of slow paddling, no targets. Just fun and another 7k closer to my target for charity.

[DanielJ]

To increase my amount of km's per month i also enlisted in the Holiday Challenge. If i row 100k before 25 december Concept2 will donate a certain amount to a charity.

What I've been doing for the last month or so is rowing twice a day on quite a few days of the week. Keeping the rows varied (for me, noon was an easy "UT2" 40 mins @ 22 spm; this evening I'll do a 2 x 2k intervals with 5-minute rest, with the second interval somewhat hard) and keeping one's meals small and regular and smart makes this quite easy. I'm sure you could do similar, and it's an easy way of keeping the volume up.

I've actually found it's easier than just always rowing once a day, perhaps because it takes the pressure off what used to be that day's row, and one doesn't have to keep doing 10k+ sessions to maintain an honest week's output.

[Shrogran]

To increase my amount of km's per month i also enlisted in the Holiday Challenge. If i row 100k before 25 december Concept2 will donate a certain amount to a charity.

What I've been doing for the last month or so is rowing twice a day on quite a few days of the week. Keeping the rows varied (for me, noon was an easy "UT2" 40 mins @ 22 spm; this evening I'll do a 2 x 2k intervals with 5-minute rest, with the second interval somewhat hard) and keeping one's meals small and regular and smart makes this quite easy. I'm sure you could do similar, and it's an easy way of keeping the volume up.

I've actually found it's easier than just always rowing once a day, perhaps because it takes the pressure off what used to be that day's row, and one doesn't have to keep doing 10k+ sessions to maintain an honest week's output.

Sounds like a good way to go, but i am not sure we have the same opportunities. During the day i cant row. I live at least an hours drive from work. At my work there is no gym close enough i could use in my half hour lunchbreak.
Best option for me would than to get up a lot earlier and row a few k's. But that would wake up my girl as the rower is in the next room.
For now i am stuck with one row during the weekdays. But this def could be an option in the weekend.