Training Musings and Training Philosophies Thread: Q&A

General discussion on Training. How to get better on your erg, how to use your erg to get better at another sport, or anything else about improving your abilities.
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sheehc
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Re: Training Musings and Training Philosophies Thread: Q&A

Post by sheehc » May 5th, 2010, 4:12 pm

The same question came to my mind as well, but I've never put much stock in these tables for training and never bothered to look into it. My understanding is that the tables are based on observed performance among the varying strata of competitive athletes. This leads me to wonder if it is lack of familiarity with the deadlift in an effort to protect one's back rather than an actual physiological or biomechanical reason.

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hjs
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Re: Training Musings and Training Philosophies Thread: Q&A

Post by hjs » May 6th, 2010, 4:02 am

sheehc wrote:
Numbers for weight are very dependend on your height.
Is this to say the longer stroke would allow one to overcome the drag their own body weight imparts on the boat even though the person is physically weaker? How would one attempt that adjustment?
The taller athlete is not weaker but the weight has to travel over a bigger distance. If you squat 100 kg at 6.6 or at 5.9 is a big difference. Weightwise both people are equal, but energywise the 6.6 man has to do much more to do the same rep. In sports this means the taller man is much stronger.

By this I don,t mean that doing strenght training is not a good thing, but just looking at such a table is not very usefull. You need to see the hole context.
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ausrwr
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Re: Training Musings and Training Philosophies Thread: Q&A

Post by ausrwr » May 6th, 2010, 4:30 am

I do agree with that!

At my height, doing a full arse-to-ankles squat is a killer. When I was at my strongest I was only ever squatting 250lbs for a set of 5*5, which was the lowest of our group by something in the order of 30kgs. However, the rest of the group was 6'1" to 6'3 - shorter guys with massive legs! The leverage is not something that's taken into account.

However, in peak force (ie on Dyno) I would be signficantly stronger. So if Nolte was suggesting that I should have been squatting 180kg or so to achieve his strength goals, I would suggest something else!
Rich Cureton. 7:02 at BIRC. But "much better than that now". Yeah, right.

sheehc
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Re: Training Musings and Training Philosophies Thread: Q&A

Post by sheehc » May 6th, 2010, 11:12 am

The taller athlete is not weaker but the weight has to travel over a bigger distance.
I get what you are saying and agree in terms of absolute strength, the taller guy has to do much more work to lift the same weight and it is by far more impressive. However it doesn't change the fact that the taller guy still has to overcome his weight's effect on drag and in that light, the relative measurements have no need to account for height (unless one can make a mathematical correction to account for the longer application of power which I lack the knowledge to do). That effect will be relative to body weight and as such, the taller man may in fact be "weaker". However that said, Ausrwr points out exactly why I don't put much stock in strength tables:
However, in peak force (ie on Dyno) I would be signficantly stronger.
This is what is left out of the equation when dealing with pure strength training. I've seen this same basic scenario on a number of occasions. The guy who lifts less weight still manages to pull similar peak force values. However this does raise two questions 1) What inefficiencies exist in the, weight lifting wise, stronger man that prevent him from achieving a greater peak force and 2) How much higher could the peak force of the, weight lifting wise, weaker man be if he could lift more weights? Very debatable and I think there are many ways to approach the issue.

End of the day, although I do believe there is benefit to weight lifting if it is appropriately individualized to the athlete in front of you, I'm mostly concerned with what the guy can do on a low pull, 20", and 1' test relative to longer distances as well as general ability to maintain appropriate posture and physical positioning throughout the stroke rather than actual weight standards......and may the grammar gods forgive me for that run on sentence cuz it is pretty bad.

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Re: Training Musings and Training Philosophies Thread: Q&A

Post by ArmandoChavezUNC » May 9th, 2010, 1:05 am

So not to completely derail the topic of conversation to something else, but I do have a pretty pressing question about training.

I keep reading/hearing about how U2 is such an important part of training. I'm a relatively inexperienced rower and I've never really been introduced to training in U2/U1 zones or anything, but for this summer our coach made a training plan for us and it includes a bunch of U2 sessions at HR 120-140. I just wonder how it is (physiologically) that U2 works and makes you faster on the erg. To be at that heart rate I have to pull above 2:00 min splits, which makes me feel like I'm doing absolutely no work. I'm inclined to think that U2 does nothing but clearly they are a major part of training in rowing of all levels. Could anyone enlighten me as to how it is exactly that it works and why training programs spend so much of total workout time/meters on it?
PBs: 2k 6:17.0 (2018), 6k 19:51.2 (2018), 10k 34:33.2 (2017), 60' 17,014m (2018), HM 1:13:27.5 (2019)

Old PBs: LP 1:09.9 (~2010), 100m 16.1 (~2010), 500m 1:26.7 (~2010), 1k 3:07.0 (~2010)

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Re: Training Musings and Training Philosophies Thread: Q&A

Post by mikvan52 » May 9th, 2010, 8:47 am

Dear (ArmandoChavezUNC » May 9th, 2010, 12:05 am)

I used to feel the same way you do about UT1 and UT2...("what's the point?")
I had three zones back then: hard -harder- and hardest. I wasn't progressing as I hoped to be.

Tom Bohrer of tbfit.com convinced me to change my training to include lots of the "Utilization" zone work.
I got faster. I won my age/weight group at CRASH-B one year later.
Naturally, still did work in the other zones too but wearing a HR monitor kept me honest about not working too hard on the easy days.

I'll leave to others to document the physiological mechanisms that go into this.

One thing I noticed: It was easier to get more efficient with my stroke as lower intensity and lower rates. My split time slowly eased down while I stayed in UT. I doubt that it would have if I was erging at higher rates and intensities.

2:02 pace for 80 minutes may seem like a waste of time. I do find it somewhat dreary but there is a payoff in the end.
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Re: Training Musings and Training Philosophies Thread: Q&A

Post by ThatMoos3Guy » May 9th, 2010, 7:31 pm

Alright, so my season ended yesterday and now it's time for the "offseason". I plan on taking about a week or so off from rowing related activities (erging, rowing, lifting) to get some rest, clear my mind and make time for studying. I'm not really sure what my plan should be for the summer. Right now I have a couple of goals: get better at sculling, get stronger, not let my erg times go to shit. With that in mind I have a preliminary training schedule for the summer:

Lift: 2-3 days a week
Scull: 2-3 days a week
Erg: 1 day a week

I plan on doing a lot of low rate technique work in the single to help with my balance and form, but that's about all I have so far. With that kind of framework in mind what would you guys recommend?

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Re: Training Musings and Training Philosophies Thread: Q&A

Post by bloomp » May 9th, 2010, 8:18 pm

ThatMoos3Guy wrote:Alright, so my season ended yesterday and now it's time for the "offseason". I plan on taking about a week or so off from rowing related activities (erging, rowing, lifting) to get some rest, clear my mind and make time for studying. I'm not really sure what my plan should be for the summer. Right now I have a couple of goals: get better at sculling, get stronger, not let my erg times go to shit. With that in mind I have a preliminary training schedule for the summer:

Lift: 2-3 days a week
Scull: 2-3 days a week
Erg: 1 day a week

I plan on doing a lot of low rate technique work in the single to help with my balance and form, but that's about all I have so far. With that kind of framework in mind what would you guys recommend?
Andy, clearly great minds think alike. I came up with a week-by-week training plan earlier today. Was hoping to get some feedback on it. Mind you, it focuses more on erging and is 9 sessions/week.

Monday:
Morning - 2 hour UT2 piece, 2:09-2:12
Afternoon - Lifting. Squats, Cleans, Ankle Squats, Bench Pull, Lawnmowers, Bench Press, Jackknife Crunches (4x25). All lifts are 7/7/5/5 reps at high weight.

Tuesday:
Morning - OTW in the single. 5k pausing arms away every stroke, 5k 1/4 feather, 5k hands down intentionally low on the recovery. This will change in June/July as I'm doing a sweep program Tuesday and Thursday mornings with other college kids in CT.

Afternoon - WP Level 4 16/18/16 2' @ each pace. 48-60' depending on how I feel.

Wednesday:
Morning - 2 hour UT2 piece, 2:09-2:12

Afternoon - Lifting. Squats, Cleans, Ankle Squats, Bench Pull, Lawnmowers, Bench Press, Jackknife Crunches (4x25). All lifts are 7/7/5/5 reps at high weight.

Thursday:
Morning - OTW in the single. 5k @ half feather, 5k pausing arms away every stroke, 5k @ half slide.

Afternoon - WP Level 4 20/22/24 3'/2'/1' OR 20/22/20 2' @ each pace. 48-72' depending on how I feel.

Friday:
Morning or Afternoon - Pick one: 8x500m, 4x1k, 4x2k, 5x1500m

Weekends off, maybe a run or swim or something light. Lemme know what you think. My training is at the point where I know what works and understand how to find a balanced schedule so I don't get tired but will continue to make gains. My goal is to break 18' for a 5k and 37' for 10k in the fall season.
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sheehc
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Re: Training Musings and Training Philosophies Thread: Q&A

Post by sheehc » May 10th, 2010, 1:27 pm

Thatmoos: how does one prevent their erg score from going south with only 3-4 aerobic workouts a week? If you are looking for a more relaxing break you should still be doing something 6x a week but mix it up in terms of cross training and keep the intensity a bit lower.

bloomp: I'd probably replace the cleans with an RDL or some other deadlift variation. I save the more dynamic movements for the late fall or winter.

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Re: Training Musings and Training Philosophies Thread: Q&A

Post by mikvan52 » May 13th, 2010, 4:24 pm

I wonder at what general age weight lifting more than 1 day a week becomes no longer necessary?
It seems to me that when I was younger I got a big boost out of it (in terms of performances). 2 long-ish sessions did me quite well...

Now, at age 57, I wonder....
I like weight training... It just doesn't seem to help very much.

Anybody know of any studies?
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American 60's Lwt. 2k record (6:49) •• set WRs for 60' & FM •• ~ now surpassed
repeat combined Masters Lwt & Hwt 1x National Champion E & F class
62 yrs, 160 lbs, 6' ...

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hjs
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Re: Training Musings and Training Philosophies Thread: Q&A

Post by hjs » May 14th, 2010, 4:51 am

mikvan52 wrote:I wonder at what general age weight lifting more than 1 day a week becomes no longer necessary?
It seems to me that when I was younger I got a big boost out of it (in terms of performances). 2 long-ish sessions did me quite well...

Now, at age 57, I wonder....
I like weight training... It just doesn't seem to help very much.

Anybody know of any studies?
http://sportsmedicine.about.com/cs/mast ... 61200a.htm
For my training see twitter @Hjsrowing

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hjs
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Re: Training Musings and Training Philosophies Thread: Q&A

Post by hjs » May 14th, 2010, 4:52 am

hjs wrote:
mikvan52 wrote:I wonder at what general age weight lifting more than 1 day a week becomes no longer necessary?
It seems to me that when I was younger I got a big boost out of it (in terms of performances). 2 long-ish sessions did me quite well...

Now, at age 57, I wonder....
I like weight training... It just doesn't seem to help very much.

Anybody know of any studies?
http://sportsmedicine.about.com/cs/mast ... 61200a.htm
My idea is, the older you get the more important it is to do strenghttraining, you have to try to keep you muscle.
For my training see twitter @Hjsrowing

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mikvan52
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Re: Training Musings and Training Philosophies Thread: Q&A

Post by mikvan52 » May 14th, 2010, 7:15 am

hjs wrote:
mikvan52 wrote:I wonder at what general age weight lifting more than 1 day a week becomes no longer necessary?
It seems to me that when I was younger I got a big boost out of it (in terms of performances). 2 long-ish sessions did me quite well...

Now, at age 57, I wonder....
I like weight training... It just doesn't seem to help very much.

Anybody know of any studies?
http://sportsmedicine.about.com/cs/mast ... 61200a.htm
Thanks for that.

To add to the mix:
It seems though that the low rep. wt routines are of only marginal benefit to me while lower wt. high rep. lifts do the most good.
I suppose I should mix them up to get the benefit that variety might provide.
3 Crash-B hammers
American 60's Lwt. 2k record (6:49) •• set WRs for 60' & FM •• ~ now surpassed
repeat combined Masters Lwt & Hwt 1x National Champion E & F class
62 yrs, 160 lbs, 6' ...

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hjs
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Re: Training Musings and Training Philosophies Thread: Q&A

Post by hjs » May 14th, 2010, 7:29 am

mikvan52 wrote:To add to the mix:
It seems though that the low rep. wt routines are of only marginal benefit to me while lower wt. high rep. lifts do the most good.
I suppose I should mix them up to get the benefit that variety might provide.
Going to low on the reps is always very tough on the joint's, staying in the 10/12 rep range with good form is low enough and going to failure is also not needed. But 1 way or the other you need some intensity to train you power/musclestrenght, but I do think that we need to use 60/80% of max stenght to keep that strenght. And the basic, big exercises. Plus some abwork.
For my training see twitter @Hjsrowing

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Re: Training Musings and Training Philosophies Thread: Q&A

Post by jliddil » May 14th, 2010, 9:28 am

ACSM Stand on weight training:
Free full text

Progression Models in Resistance Training for Healthy Adults

http://journals.lww.com/acsm-msse/Fullt ... or.26.aspx
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