Ranger's training thread

General discussion on Training. How to get better on your erg, how to use your erg to get better at another sport, or anything else about improving your abilities.
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ranger
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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by ranger » May 4th, 2010, 3:56 pm

Steve G wrote:Lets leave it that way, until he does something concrete
Yea, something concrete, like outrowing everyone my age and weight (or older) by 40 seconds rather than just 20.

RANKING RESULTS 2010

Indoor Rower | Individual and Race Results | 2000m | Men's | Lightweight | Custom Age Range (59–70) | 2010 Season

1 Rich Cureton 59 Ann Arbor MI USA 6:41.4 RACE
2 Hugh Pite 65 Sidney BC CAN 7:02.7 RACE
3 Robert Lakin 61 Wichita KS USA 7:03.6 RACE
4 Gregory Brock 62 Santa Cruz CA USA 7:03.9 IND
5 Rolf Meek 59 Oslo NOR 7:05.4 IND
6 Jerry Lawson 62 USA 7:06.0 RACE
6 Gerald Lawson 62 Winona MN USA 7:06.0 IND
8 Leif Petersen 64 DEN 7:08.5 RACE
9 Peter Francis 61 Denver CO USA 7:09.3 RACE
10 Roger Prowse 65 GBR 7:10.3 RACE

Let's just put a gag on it.

No talking about my training until I beat Eskild!

That seems reasonable.

:D :D

And no talk from Nav until he beats GB!

And no talk from Watts until he beats Big Bird!

And no talk from Lancs and bloomp until they beat Henrik S.!

And no talk from Dougie until he beats his grandmother!

His grandmother?

:o :o

And no talk from Bove until he is Jesus Christ re-reborn, rather than just an angel of mercy to those in margaritaville.

:roll: :roll:

Hmm.

A margarita sounds good.

Think I'll swish one up.

4 p.m. here in Ann Arbor.

Happy hour!

Vacation.

Gotta love it.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 61 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

ranger
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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by ranger » May 4th, 2010, 4:55 pm

I am futzing with rigging these days.

Reading Davenport's "Nuts and Bolts."

Tried more "inboard" this morning.

Much better.

Can't wait to pick up my new Fluid.

My Peinert is a bit of a tub.

The "Windhover" will fly.

http://www.rowfluidesign.com/products/singles.php

ranger
Rich Cureton M 61 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

ranger
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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by ranger » May 5th, 2010, 2:49 am

Rate in OTW training in a single is limited by other factors, but on the erg, if you stroke along at nothing much less than your 2K stroking power and don't mind doing it, there is no reason, I think, to row along at 16-20 spm in your day-to-day distance rowing if you can row along at 27-32 spm.

That is, if you can keep your technique together at such high heart rates as people like Freed said that he did in his day-to-day distance training on the erg, there is no reason, I think, to do Caviston's level 4 rowing from day to day rather than a kind of top of the line UT1/"threshold" rowing.

In terms of pace, the difference can be as much as 20 seconds per 500m (e.g., 1:40 pace vs. 2:00 pace).

I think that Caviston's Level 4 rowing appropriate for most people because those people (1) have not yet learned to row effectively, that is, have not yet developed the skeletal-muscular capacity and conditioning to maintain a high stroking power with solid technique and superior endurance over long distances and (2) have no experience working physically at threshold heart rates over long distances in any way, not just in rowing.

Caviston's level 4 rowing accommodates both of these practical limitations, especially when his WP is applied in a general way to a large group of young college kids, in Caviston's case at the University of Michigan, young college women.

That is, Caviston's level 4 rowing can take a bunch of unseasoned athletes--newbies, diaper dandies--and make rowers out of them, before they are asked to go on and become superior athletes, too, by raising the rate and pace.

Once you can do level 4 rowing, though, and once you are an indeed a superior athlete, who can raise the rate without trading rate for pace and maintain threshold heart rates over long distances on a day-to-day basis, I see no reason to do Level 4 rowing at all, much less for 80% of your training volume.

That's just a big waste of time.

That's just rowing like a newbie freshman college kid when you are no longer that at all.

For his better rowers, Caviston handles this difficulty (1) by maintaining an unusually high stroking power in his level 4 rowing, much higher than you might want to maintain in a 2K in order to maximize your pace, and (2) by pushing his rate ladder to 26 spm.

Sure, if you row at such a high stroking powers at 26 spm, this rowing is indeed hard, if not impossible.

But again, if you can do it, I see no reason to overstroke and underrate in this way, once you have learned how to do it, especially for little lightweights like me.

After you train in this way, when you go to race, you tend to rate 32 spm for 2K rather than 42 spm, and after a while, if not from the get-go, this is just not the best way to pull your best 2K, as the Danish lightweights have demonstrated.

By rowing from day to day at higher rates, the Danish lightweights beat the Anglo-American lightweights on the erg by 10-20 seconds over 2K, year after year, generation after generation.

This might be why.

The Anglo-American lightweights are overstroking and underrating.

This overemphasizes effectiveness and underemphasizes efficiency.

The Danish lightweights are balancing the two, just letting it rip.

They are training like seasoned oarsmen rather than a bunch of freshman college kids who still need to learn how to work train and row.

1:44 @ 28 spm feels just about right to me for this kind of day to day distance rowing.

Interestingly, 1:44 was just what Freed held to in his 30min rows, although doing that, he drove his HR close to 190 bpm, showing that these rows were not really top-end UT1, but AT.

An AT of 1:44 correlates with a 6:36 2K, just about what Freed did.

A UT1 of 1:44 correlates with a 6:16 2K.

The difference is five seconds per 500m, a whole training band.

It appears that Freed had all kinds of guts and physical ability but needed to learn how to row.

Among older folks, he was the ultimate "hammer," awkward and unskilled, but a workhorse who was tough as nails.

ranger
Last edited by ranger on May 5th, 2010, 5:05 am, edited 3 times in total.
Rich Cureton M 61 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

ranger
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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by ranger » May 5th, 2010, 4:38 am

Other than not knowing how to row or work hard, the other reason that you might need to row your distance training on the erg at low rates is that you are just old, and because of neglect, you have lost your youthful aerobic capacity.

If you don't use it, you lose it.

That's Mike VB's problem.

His maxHR is 163 bpm.

My anaerobic threshold is 172 bpm.

Our resting HRs are the same.

I am a year and a half older than Mike.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 61 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by Steve G » May 5th, 2010, 4:43 am

The major difference is Mike puts his head on the block and COMPETES!
You just talk the talk. Except for one decent 2K you have done absolutely nothing worth crowing about for eons!
FORUM FLYERS
PBs all 50+ LW
500--1.33.3 / 1K--3.17.9 / 2K--6.55.0 /5K 18.16.2 / 6K 22.05 / 10K--37.43.9 /30m 8034m / HM 1.23.58
UK 65 LW 64Kgs

ranger
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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by ranger » May 5th, 2010, 4:51 am

Steve G wrote:The major difference is Mike puts his head on the block and COMPETES!
You just talk the talk. Except for one decent 2K you have done absolutely nothing worth crowing about for eons!
Not sure what you are talking about, at least, as far as the erg is concerned.

On the erg, I competed twice as much as Mike this year, and without even preparing for the races, was six seconds faster than Mike in my best race, nine seconds fast than Mike in his hammer row at WIRC 2010.

Besides Bake's little regatta, Mike only raced at WIRC 2010.

In terms of size, Bake's little regatta was nothing like Chicago, Cincinnati, St. Catharines, and Cleveland, which I went to.

RANKING RESULTS 2010

Indoor Rower | Individual and Race Results | 2000m | Men's | Lightweight | Custom Age Range (55–59) | 2010 Season

1 Rich Cureton 59 Ann Arbor MI USA 6:41.4 RACE
2 Michael van Beuren 57 Hartland VT USA 6:47.6 IND_V
3 Jonathan Rich 56 Winter Park FL USA 6:52.3 RACE
4 Eric Winterbottom 58 Bodytalk GBR 7:01.9 RACE
5 Gary Passler 55 amesbury MA USA 7:05.0 RACE
6 David Sutkowy 56 manlius NY USA 7:05.4 RACE
6 Rolf Meek 59 Oslo NOR 7:05.4 IND
8 John Busk 56 Slangerup DEN 7:07.6 IND
9 Ernest Cook 55 Brookline MA USA 7:08.3 RACE
10 Daniel Devez 56 Port-Marly Rc FRA 7:08.5 RACE

Yes, I would have been at WIRC 2010, too, snow permitting, and if I had, would have outrowed Mike by 10 seconds, without even preparing for it.

When I am fully prepared for it, I'll beat Mike by 30 seconds.

Because Mike lives close by, he didn't even have to go to a WIRC qualifier in order to get to Boston comfortably, and when it came time to travel, he didn't have to deal with the midwestern snow, as I had to.

OTW?

Well, that's another story.

Mike is an OTW rowing coach, who has been rowing for 40 years.

I am an English professor who didn't get in a boat until I was 53 years old.

I still have a lot to learn.

I am getting there, though.

I am in no rush.

Steve, I am new to this sport.

Mike isn't.

In rowing, unless you invest some time and energy in mastering the skills that you need to be your best, you will never improve.

You will just get worse.

In recent times, that's is what all male WRs, 40-70, have done.

They have just gotten worse.

Just think what might have happened if Andy Ripley and Paul Hendershott had learned to row!

My guess is that, rowing well, they would have been about a dozen seconds faster over 2K.

That would have put the 50s hwt WR at 5:55 and the 60s hwt WR at 6:12.

Both Andy and Paul rowed wretchedly, but physically, for their age, they were beasts!

ranger
Rich Cureton M 61 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by ranger » May 5th, 2010, 8:48 am

Interestingly, re the 1:44 @ 28 spm for top-end UT1 rowing, 310 watts is just what I do on a stepper for extended periods (an hour, two hours, etc.), if I push my HR all of the way to 170 bpm.

So if it indeed turns out that I am now doing 1:44 for top-end UT1 on the erg, the power output on the two machines will match my heart rates when producing that power.

The problem with rowing is that it is much more technical than stepping.

Rowing demands much more work on effectiveness and efficiency in order to produce a power output such at 310 watts with a HR below your anaerobic threshold.

Perhaps because of all of the running I have done in my life, I am _very_ effective and efficient on a stepper, just naturally, if I can get it set so that it feels like running (but without the pounding).

It has been quite a bit more difficult to become effective and efficient at rowing.

For a lightweight, you are effective if you pull 13 SPI at low rates such as 20 spm, efficient if you pull 11 SPI at higher rates such as 30 spm, and both effective and efficient if you race at 12 SPI over 2K.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 61 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

ranger
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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by ranger » May 6th, 2010, 2:45 am

For male heavyweights 30s-70s, at least, the trend line is for the best 60min rows to fall about 4 seconds per 500m (600m) across the decades, centering on Steve Krum's 17K/1:46 for 50s heavyweights.

30s 18.2K
40s 17.6K
50s 17K/1:46
60s 16.4K
70s 15.8K

So, 17K for 60min is quite a bit faster than any 60-year-old has ever rowed.

17.3K is quite a bit faster than any 50-year-old has ever rowed.

No 60s lightweight has rowed 16K/1:52 for 60min.

I will be 60 in eight months.

I am a lightweight.

1:52 @ 22 spm is UT2 for a 6:28 2K.

60min is done at top-end UT1.

Lightweights, I think, should rate 28 spm for a 60min trial.

ranger
Last edited by ranger on May 6th, 2010, 4:52 am, edited 3 times in total.
Rich Cureton M 61 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

ranger
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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by ranger » May 6th, 2010, 4:16 am

Beautiful "base pace" stroke now, 1:44 @ 27 spm (11.5 SPI).

Top-end UT1, pushing my HR to 172 bpm.

Just pouring on the meters now, fiddling here and there, trying to get more efficiency, more relaxation, more consistency.

Not much else to work on.

This is the whole ballgame.

Your 2K is only as good as your 60min row.

The rest is pretty fixed and predictable.

1:44 for 60min predicts a 6:16 2K.

Put in 15K before dawn.

Back out OTW for another 15K at first light.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 61 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by ranger » May 6th, 2010, 4:47 am

Right now, as he is approaching 58 years old, Mike VB will row about 1:52/16K for 60min.

1:52/16K for 60min predicts a 1:42/6:48 2K, right about what Mike pulls for 2K, at his best.

As with other 60s lightweights historically, in a couple of years, when Mike is 60 years old, he will no longer pull 1:52/16K for 60min--or pull 1:42/6:48 for 2K.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 61 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by ranger » May 6th, 2010, 5:53 am

The 60s lwt hammer at WIRC 2010 pulled 1:46/7:04.

60min is done at 2K + 10.

:shock: :shock:

ranger
Rich Cureton M 61 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by JimR » May 6th, 2010, 6:57 am

ranger wrote:The 60s lwt hammer at WIRC 2010 pulled 1:46/7:04.

60min is done at 2K + 10.

:shock: :shock:

ranger
So you could do a 60 min trial at 1:56 avg. pace ... to see if you are positioned to win a hammer at WIRC 2011. I think many would be interested in how that goes.

JimR

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by leadville » May 6th, 2010, 7:08 am

JimR wrote:
ranger wrote:The 60s lwt hammer at WIRC 2010 pulled 1:46/7:04.

60min is done at 2K + 10.

:shock: :shock:

ranger
So you could do a 60 min trial at 1:56 avg. pace ... to see if you are positioned to win a hammer at WIRC 2011. I think many would be interested in how that goes.

JimR
JimR - I'd suggest there are actually very few who would be interested. rangerboy's continued lack of class and mendacious character has alienated pretty much everyone. I'd also suggest we allow rangerboy to use this thread as an echo chamber. As I've found to my chagrin, attempting to have an informed, intelligent, respectful conversation with rangerboy isn't possible.
Returned to sculling after an extended absence; National Champion 2010, 2011 D Ltwt 1x, PB 2k 7:04.5 @ 2010 Crash-b

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by ranger » May 6th, 2010, 9:48 am

JimR wrote:So you could do a 60 min trial at 1:56 avg. pace ... to see if you are positioned to win a hammer at WIRC 2011. I think many would be interested in how that goes.
I pull 1:56 with a HR of about 135 bpm.

I could do it all day long.

UT2 is 145 bpm.

In 2003, I pulled 1:56 for 80K.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 61 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

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Re: Ranger's training thread

Post by JimR » May 6th, 2010, 11:27 am

ranger wrote:
JimR wrote:So you could do a 60 min trial at 1:56 avg. pace ... to see if you are positioned to win a hammer at WIRC 2011. I think many would be interested in how that goes.
I pull 1:56 with a HR of about 135 bpm.

I could do it all day long.

UT2 is 145 bpm.

In 2003, I pulled 1:56 for 80K.

ranger
But it is mid 2010 ... so could you actually do a 60 min trial at an avg pace of 1:56 with an HR that does not exceed 135 ... today (or this week/month)?

Or is this what you are training towards ... on the way to something much faster paced???

JimR

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