Using Heart Rate to Train Erg

[Romper]

Hello All.

Why is HR used for training with Erg with the Specific Bands (UT 1, UT 2, AT, etc) when cardiac drift ,error, inconsistencies are well known and is not the preferred method for measuring similar cycling training regimes for those same reasons?

And, what is the alternative to measuring max HR on the erg instead of using the formula noted in link below?

http://www.concept2.com.au/indoor-rower ... rate-range




Romper

[Livio Livius]

Alternative is train by power ie wattage.

[Romper]

Thanks

How do use watts in the same bands like Hr?

I see the major players use HR (like Greg Smith).

Curious to know why HR is used over Watts?

Romper

[jamesg]

Training methods mostly use HR because no other subjective metric is available in most sports. The erg must be one of the first devices to have had accurate, simple and cheap power measurement, thanks to the alternating action of rowing, but had to convert W to speed and pace to suit the methods used afloat: 2k racing with times taken every 500m.

Terry O'Neill showed tables with HR bands and put in a column with % of 2k test Watts in the then C2 UK site (Interactive training) in about 2003, so effectively his training plans since then can be used both ways.

I use Watts, because I see the numbers immediately. HR is very slow to react. If I lead off at top UT1 Watt level, (based on a 2k test) it takes me about 20 minutes even to get HR in the UT1 band (120) and another 20 to get to the top (140). Watts can be controlled to within 2% and also offers stroke quality control.

I think HR on the erg is of use only for beginners who can't row (and HR will stay low, so it's clear something has to be done) or for those who can row but are not yet fit, so will see HR spiraling out of control, if work is too high, so soon be forced to stop.

Use of Watts on bikes is not so simple, strain gauges are needed and complex electronics. http://www.cyclingpowerlab.com/PowerMeterReviews.aspx
That page has a phrase reading: gold standard price of £2900.

[bisqeet]

Hi James,

wouldn't it be fair to say that correlation between blood lactate and heart rate is directly proportional?
in which case training per hear rate would be a good way to try and avoid higher lactate levels, for those without access to expensive measuring equipment ?

i think this would be a valid reason for using HR instead of Power.

if i'm not wrong - Greg trains using a polarised method - which requires 80% of training to be at low intensity (UT2).
It could be done with watts i guess, but then cardia creep might bring you over the target zone and increase the lactate, making recovery longer.
i.e. training the next day would be comprimised

[Livio Livius]

Much debated watts versus heartrate (just google and you find it' although mainly in cycling). Conclusion watts is the goldstandard for training. It is therefore unbelievable that the erg community is still holding to HR when have reliable watt reading available. Last 3 years a lot of new power products come available besides SRM for cycling (read DCRainmaker) and prices have dropped dramatically (even SRM last month dropped). Also runners have entered the power era with Stryd recently. So don't get your self fooled with HR and start with power training.

[bisqeet]

I suppose it depends on what you are trying to achieve on your training.
For a typical l4 training I would use power/stroke.
If I'm trying to stop in the ut2 bands then looking at the power will not help me, I'm better off using heart monitor.

Ergo. Different training methods require different control measures

[Bob S.]

There is one catch to using wattage as measured by the erg monitor. It shows only how much effort has actually gone into wheel-spinning. Anyone with an inefficient stroke will be expending a lot of wasted energy that doesn't show up on the monitor. If the inefficiency loss is consistent, it probably doesn't matter for using using zones based on wattage - but it is more likely to vary. If the wattage zones are based on a 2k TT done at high rate, there is a good chance that there will be a fair amount of unmeasured energy expended as a result of technique going downhill at the high rate. An awful thought that some one's best effort might have been done more efficiently, but it is not at all uncommon.

Bob S.

[Romper]

Great discussion lads..

Bob - do you use HR to train in the bands on the ERG?

All - what is your response to Bob in relation to his post?

Bisqueet - how do you compensate for the inherent errors when using HR for your training?

Romper

[bisqeet]

Great discussion lads..

Bob - do you use HR to train in the bands on the ERG?

All - what is your response to Bob in relation to his post?

Bisqueet - how do you compensate for the inherent errors when using HR for your training?

Romper

Hi
Most of my training (100km+/week) is done at ut2 (max 136). A typical training would be a Hm @R20 g 2:05/500.
Any errors at that low HR I would deem negligible.
I do 2 typical l4 trainings - something along the lines of a Hm with 7 stroke rate changes alk based on the same as spi (stroke power index)
Typically spm 18 - 22.
I will quite often go into ut1/at especially in excess of 11W/stroke. HR is not controlled but observed.
The one fast training I do is spm 26-30, usually a Tt. ITC, C2CTC
Personally I don'tdo a lot of 2ks, that might change.,but at the moment is not a priority being fast over that distance (for me)
I guess it depends on what your targets are.
I'm a little unsure at the moment, what I want to do.
Sub 2:00 for A Fm
36:xx 10k
Maybe even a 6:40 2k ( I would change my training for that tho)

[Bob S.]

Bob - do you use HR to train in the bands on the ERG?

No. I have never had my HR max measured, so I would not have a base to use. Even my use of watts is not based on a real 2k, since my best 2ks were done at sea level and just about everything else is at 4k' of alt. I haven't done a 2k TT at home for a long, long time, so I can only guess at what it might be here.

[jackarabit]

The IP zone training guide is called a "Pace Guide." Nominal training zone, %HRR, pace, %2k power (in watts) all in the tabulation. You do have to calculate watts and annotate the table. So P, W, and HR ranges per zone. Belt, suspenders and rabbit's foot. Don't leave home without them.

[Romper]

Thanks Guys.

So, if I was to use Watts for my IP training bands, what is the best method of determining the Watt value so that I can use it across the training bands?


Romper

[jamesg]

Suggest you read the IAPs and do a 2k test. Or just guess it, maybe via a 500 test. Or just use ratings, if your stroke is good enough.

[gregsmith01748]

First, I am not a major player. I am an old guy with an interest in trying get the best results from a less than ideal body type and limited amount of time to train.

Second, I use heart rate, shall we say, sparingly. I am a big believer in polarized training, and I use lactate testing to make sure that my steady state sessions are at the right intensity (1.6 to 2.0 mmol/l). But lactate testing is a pain and not a continuous measure, so in these sessions, I also measure HR. If my HR goes above the top of UT 1, then I know I need to slow down a bit.

I also monitor HR in intense interval sessions and time trials. If I am not getting above 95% HRR in the later intervals, or at the end of the time trial, I feel like I have not really gone all out. I will also sometimes set a HR maximum cap in these sessions to keep recovery time reasonable.

But I don't think HR alone is a reliable way to set training intensity for steady state.