Ramp test on C2 - like Wattbike

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smeeagain
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Ramp test on C2 - like Wattbike

Post by smeeagain » February 1st, 2018, 12:28 pm

Is anyone familiar with the Ramp Test on the Wattbike. Im looking to do something similar on a Concept2.

Let me elaborate. I was working with a gym trainer a couple of years ago and he had me doing a ramp test on the Wattbike, as he knew I liked cycling, liked the analytics of the data and could push myself hard (to exhaustion) as a former rower, even though I was quite unfit at the time we were dong it. And that is important as a lot of folk dont know how hard they can push themselves. We did the test approx every 5-6 weeks to monitor improvement over a 5-6 month period.

This is how the Watt bike test goes. You must stay seated in the saddle (not really applicable to rowing as you cant row whilst being off the seat!), but other than that you can have have your rate (or cadence to sue the cycling term), at whatever you want, with the drag damper (same as concept 2 mechanism), set as you wish.
You start the st and the machine flashes up a target of 55watts and you row for a minute while the timer counts down to zero. When it hits zero, it resets the timer and starts to count down again from 1 minute to zero, but this time the target is 70w. This increase of the target watttage continues every minute by 15 watts so that in minute 3 you're targeting 85 watts, minute 4 105 watts and so on. You go till you can no longer maintain the target. You get a lee way of -5 watts i.e. aim for 70 but hit 65, for a maximum of five seconds, if you cannot maintain the target you are done.

Th first time I did it I managed 12 minutes (I cant remember how many watts that was but based on 15 watt increments you can easily work it out - off the top of my head it was around 220 watts). At the end of the few months I was doing 18 minutes. I have a friend who is a reasonable cyclist and I think he got 23/24 mins. The test, I believe is designed to be less than 30 minutes maximum.

So how do i replicate this on the C2? Obviously I can just row and increase the wattage every minute - but ....... I've only ever rowed using pace per 500m, or time or distance. So I don't know what wattage would be the right wattage to start minute one at ,and I don't know, in rowing terms what a sensible minute increment is to step it up. I literally have zero idea what wattage I row at so don't want to start at 55w and increase it by 15 watts every minute, only to find that I'm still ramping it up 44 minutes later !

Does anyone have any ideas or can suggest i way I could work it out, even just roughly, for myself please?

Smee

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hjs
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Re: Ramp test on C2 - like Wattbike

Post by hjs » February 1st, 2018, 12:50 pm

A simple is test is doing 1 min reps, with 1 min rest. Every rep you increese pace with 1 second.
You roughly need to know what your 2k pace for a starting pace. Max number of reps is 30 for the pm memory.

Say you pull 7,00 on a 2k, 1.45 pace, you could start at 1.55, you get the idea.

Its simple and easy to follow. You keep rowing until you miss a rep, and missing is not being able to row on pace, not missing it a tenth by accident.
Last edited by hjs on February 1st, 2018, 1:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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smeeagain
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Re: Ramp test on C2 - like Wattbike

Post by smeeagain » February 1st, 2018, 1:00 pm

hjs wrote:A simple is test is doing 1 min reps, with 1 min rest. Every rep you increese pace with 1 second.
You roughly need to know what your 2k pace for a starting pace. Max number of reps is 30 for the pm memory.

Say you pull 7,00 on a 2k, 1.45 pace, you could start at 1.55, you get the idea.

Its simple and easy to follow. You keep rowing until you miss a rep, and missing is not being able to row on pace, not missing it a tenth by accident.

Interesting, thanks

Smee

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Re: Ramp test on C2 - like Wattbike

Post by Dangerscouse » February 1st, 2018, 1:06 pm

I think Henry has suggested the best option. Trying to increase df every 60 secs might be difficult as you would need to know exactly how much it increases by for every movement of the damper.

I know on the ergs I use they are fairly small movements and they make quite a big jump in df, so you quite easily may set it too high or too low. Also the df does fluctuate slightly with stronger rowing. I have seen it move up from 139 to 141 on ergdata when sprinting as compared to a steady pull
45 HWT; 6' 4"; Liverpool 1k= 3:09; 2k= 6:36; 5k= 17:27; 6k= 21:23; 10k= 36:21 30mins= 8,356m 60mins= 16,317m HM= 1:18:40; FM= 2:49:39; 50k= 3:28:18; 100k= 7:52:44; 12hrs = 153km

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Re: Ramp test on C2 - like Wattbike

Post by Gammmmo » February 1st, 2018, 1:10 pm

What info do you hope to glean from an erg ramp test? (Serious question) I did a couple on a KingCycle in the 1990s and TBH never used the information - it basically gave me my maximum 1 minute power as was used in conjunction with my weight to see if I was any good. It used to be said it was useful in pinpointing the power where you started building lactate. Nowadays it's pretty outdated and was replace by the FTP model. Even that has now been replaced somewhat I gather. On the bike it's all about power/weight and power/aero, whereas on the erg things are more simple i.e. the erg is (once form is dialled reasonably) all about power although there is some nod to morphology for a given weight.
Paul, 47M, 5'11" 75kg (ish), ex bike time trialler.
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Targets: 1:27(500m), 3:12(1K), 6:44(2K), >8200m (30mins), 36:59(10K)

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Re: Ramp test on C2 - like Wattbike

Post by VeloMark » February 1st, 2018, 1:37 pm

Smee,

I'm a cycling coach, not a rowing coach, so I defer to the many more experienced rowers providing feedback. But, I'd suggest that, since you seem to 'enjoy' and are comfortable with your ramp protocol, that you replicate it on the C2.

Since you seem to be doing this for your own information and tracking of your progress (as opposed to earning a seat in a club boat that requires performance on their specific test), pretty much any consistent repeatable challenge will work.

Try setting your performance monitor to read watts. Then, using the 'Intervals' function, set up 1 minute intervals with zero rest.

This will give you consecutive 1 minute count downs (numbered intervals) until you quit. Then, focusing on the watts reading, replicate your 55 watt first interval, adding 15 watts each minute.

In my experience 15 watts is a bigger jump on the erg than on the bike, so you may want to experiment with a 10 watt ramp rate.

Good luck, and let us know how you get on.

Mark
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Re: Ramp test on C2 - like Wattbike

Post by JerekKruger » February 1st, 2018, 1:55 pm

Yeah, what VeloMark says should work fine. The only modification I'd make is to start higher than 65W (which is 2:55 splits). For me at least, starting at 100W (around a 2:30 split) would be low enough to start off as easy and I could ramp up from there.
Tom | 33 | 6'6" | 93kg

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Re: Ramp test on C2 - like Wattbike

Post by kini62 » February 1st, 2018, 5:35 pm

You could also try something like 10xrate for a minute and increase your rate by 1 every minute.

So r18=180 watts for 1 minute
r19=190 watts for 1 minute etc.....
56m, 5'6" 160lbs, rowing and skiing (pseudo) on the Big Island of Hawaii.

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Re: Ramp test on C2 - like Wattbike

Post by Carl Watts » February 1st, 2018, 10:27 pm

Have been asking for Concept 2 to incorporate a fitness test in the Erg Firmware for years now.

Drop some of the "Games" and release a second version of available Firmware for serious users and OTW rowers and coaches. The fitness test should also have a graphical heart rate that shows your recovery out to 2 minutes from the time the test finishes. A bit like the Force Curve but your heartrate decay plotted on the screen.

The PM5 has grunt to spare now, it could be giving you additional really useful information besides what has been available since the PM2 was released in 1996.
Carl Watts.
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Re: Ramp test on C2 - like Wattbike

Post by Edward4492 » February 1st, 2018, 11:07 pm

There was a comment regarding drag factor. No need to play around changing the drag, just row faster (spm) or pull harder. The only time most of the folks that post here use different drags is when they're doing short sprint work (500m, 1min, 100m). This type of test will peak out long before you would have the need for a heavy drag setting. On a different note, I think the point of these tests is to track heart rate or better yet blood lactate and find the point of deflection where HR or lactate goes from a gradual linear increase to a rapid exponential increase; the goal being to train just below this threshold. But I'm over-simplifying and not my area of expertise. Perhaps Greg Smith will comment? I seem to re-call he's fairly knowledgeable in this area.

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Carl Watts
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Re: Ramp test on C2 - like Wattbike

Post by Carl Watts » February 1st, 2018, 11:30 pm

Need to keep it fairly simple, not at a level for Elite rowers, there are not enough of them to matter and they are at a level where they are already sorting out what they need and not waiting for the monitor to do it for them.

Something is needed by the general public or the typical user that you can do a test after entering all your stats and after the test it just gives you a score out of 100.

The test could be 2K, 5K or 10K, your choice it doesn't really matter if you have all the lookup tables required which are simply derived from the rankings or a big enough pool of data, same as if you make the 90th percentile, you simply get a score of 90 out of 100. Pretty simple really. You then get a really quick idea of where you are in relation to others your height, weight age etc which is all that most people are interested in.
Carl Watts.
Age:52 Weight: 104kg Height:183cm
Concept 2 Monitor Service Technician & indoor rower.
http://log.concept2.com/profile/863525/log

smeeagain
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Re: Ramp test on C2 - like Wattbike

Post by smeeagain » February 2nd, 2018, 8:50 am

Gammmmo wrote:What info do you hope to glean from an erg ramp test? (Serious question) I did a couple on a KingCycle in the 1990s and TBH never used the information - it basically gave me my maximum 1 minute power as was used in conjunction with my weight to see if I was any good. It used to be said it was useful in pinpointing the power where you started building lactate. Nowadays it's pretty outdated and was replace by the FTP model. Even that has now been replaced somewhat I gather. On the bike it's all about power/weight and power/aero, whereas on the erg things are more simple i.e. the erg is (once form is dialled reasonably) all about power although there is some nod to morphology for a given weight.

What do I hope to achieve? Well it's really just a very basic monitoring of "fitness" in that I can measure that Im going harder for longer. Yes I could just row for a longer duration say moving from 10 mins to 15 minutes and dong the 15 mins at a faster pace than before but this, certainly from my wattbike experience, is quite specifically measurable and bizarrely Ive always enjoyed test to failure type of exercise

Smee

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Re: Ramp test on C2 - like Wattbike

Post by smeeagain » February 2nd, 2018, 8:53 am

Carl Watts wrote:Need to keep it fairly simple, not at a level for Elite rowers, there are not enough of them to matter and they are at a level where they are already sorting out what they need and not waiting for the monitor to do it for them.

Something is needed by the general public or the typical user that you can do a test after entering all your stats and after the test it just gives you a score out of 100.

The test could be 2K, 5K or 10K, your choice it doesn't really matter if you have all the lookup tables required which are simply derived from the rankings or a big enough pool of data, same as if you make the 90th percentile, you simply get a score of 90 out of 100. Pretty simple really. You then get a really quick idea of where you are in relation to others your height, weight age etc which is all that most people are interested in.

Totally agree on all counts. But ..... I have no interest or desire, at this stage at least, of measuring myself against others. I simply want to measure myself against myself over time. Sure I could just measure PB on say a 500 or a 2000m or whatever but that's not what Im looking for.

Smee

smeeagain
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Re: Ramp test on C2 - like Wattbike

Post by smeeagain » February 2nd, 2018, 8:54 am

Carl Watts wrote:Have been asking for Concept 2 to incorporate a fitness test in the Erg Firmware for years now.

Drop some of the "Games" and release a second version of available Firmware for serious users and OTW rowers and coaches. The fitness test should also have a graphical heart rate that shows your recovery out to 2 minutes from the time the test finishes. A bit like the Force Curve but your heartrate decay plotted on the screen.

The PM5 has grunt to spare now, it could be giving you additional really useful information besides what has been available since the PM2 was released in 1996.

Yep, totally agree. Given their links to Wattbike they must have the data/programs availbable

R

smeeagain
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Re: Ramp test on C2 - like Wattbike

Post by smeeagain » February 2nd, 2018, 8:56 am

JerekKruger wrote:Yeah, what VeloMark says should work fine. The only modification I'd make is to start higher than 65W (which is 2:55 splits). For me at least, starting at 100W (around a 2:30 split) would be low enough to start off as easy and I could ramp up from there.

Aha! Now we are getting somewhere interesting ... ! Without flicking in and out of the screens, how do I know what wattage equates to a certain split? OR do i need someone standing b the machine changing the screen for me back and forth?

Smee

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