2k plateau hit me like a train

General discussion on Training. How to get better on your erg, how to use your erg to get better at another sport, or anything else about improving your abilities.
Lwergos
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2k plateau hit me like a train

Post by Lwergos » February 17th, 2018, 7:13 pm

back ground:

3rd yr rowing

height 6'1.5

weight 165lbs

My novice year I almost broke 7 on my second 2k ever(3months in the season). One year later, after many meters, I only improve by 5 seconds @ 7 flat. Later, after a doctor's visit, I found out I had low HB and was slightly anemic as a result. Which made sense in terms of my diet, I was not eating enough. This was around the end of the season anyway so I was able to take adequate time off to recover over the summer. Fast forward to today, again after many meters (about an an hr of volume a day on the erg 5x's/week) and of course a lot of sprint work, I struggled again to pull a 7. It's definitely not a mental block. I pride myself on my mental toughness. I know the sub-par score was not a result of me holding back as when I tried to stand up after the test, my legs wilted and I collapsed to the floor.


What gives?

Cyclingman1
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Re: 2k plateau hit me like a train

Post by Cyclingman1 » February 17th, 2018, 8:34 pm

Age is missing from your background - an extremely important piece of data.

Just taking a guess, if you are 50+, less than 30 rowers worldwide are under 7min for 2K, only five are under 6:50. One has to be realistic; that time is not easy for LWts. However, I suspect only improving 5 sec in three yrs indicates a training program that is not optimal for 2K. I also see no times for 500m. 1K, 5K, 30min, and 10K. That would say a lot in terms of the type of fitness that you have. Are you doing 18:20 for 5K? Are you doing 37:20-40 for 10K? I'm sure there is a solution, but data is incomplete. Also, I'm not fond of the notion that one can will one's self to a good time. Fitness is what counts.
JimG, Gainesville, Ga, 74.

Lwergos
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Re: 2k plateau hit me like a train

Post by Lwergos » February 17th, 2018, 8:59 pm

i'm 21

dl is almost 350

squat is 250

my lowest pull is 1:13

500m is 1:26.5

1k is 1:37

5k is 1:50

2 days before 2k I did a 1250 3m r + 750 @ 1:41.2

90% of training is ss.

these are splits ofc

i know youre thinking these times don't make much sense in terms of pauls law, but I've always been a better sprinter over endurance. Also my quads are adapting well to my training, they are thicc. It seems like my issue is with my weak af heart and crap quality blood. I also have thal minor

I should mention, as far as other medical issues go, I forgot to mention I've been having muscle cramps 24/7, my heart often skips a few beats here and there during training. But I started magnesium supplements and have started to feel better.

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Re: 2k plateau hit me like a train

Post by jamesg » February 18th, 2018, 2:43 am

You could do some numerical analysis using Watts and rating.

A 2k pace is between 500 and 5k paces, and you state 1:26 and 1:50; 540 and 260 Watts, so a 300W 2k should be easy; just go slow.

What pacing scheme do you use in the 2k? Ratings?
78y, 188cm, 87kg, last seen MHR 159. 2k (2019-11-29) 8.33.8@23

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hjs
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Re: 2k plateau hit me like a train

Post by hjs » February 18th, 2018, 4:29 am

Lwergos wrote:i'm 21

dl is almost 350

squat is 250

my lowest pull is 1:13

500m is 1:26.5

1k is 1:37

5k is 1:50

2 days before 2k I did a 1250 3m r + 750 @ 1:41.2

90% of training is ss.

these are splits ofc

i know youre thinking these times don't make much sense in terms of pauls law, but I've always been a better sprinter over endurance. Also my quads are adapting well to my training, they are thicc. It seems like my issue is with my weak af heart and crap quality blood. I also have thal minor

I should mention, as far as other medical issues go, I forgot to mention I've been having muscle cramps 24/7, my heart often skips a few beats here and there during training. But I started magnesium supplements and have started to feel better.
Your aerobic fitness is very much lacking, your sprinttimes are good, but your 1k is already getting weaker.
Only one way to get this better, lots of low rate long work. Think 2k plus 18/22 rate 18/22.
Re speed work, hardly needed, do instead 5k paced work. 1500x5 rest 5 or 4x2k. Your 5k is really not strong.

If you are really a pure sprinter, you can,t change that, your 2k can improve but will relative always stay behind your sprinting.
Keep working, have patience...... There are no magic things you can do.

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Re: 2k plateau hit me like a train

Post by Lwergos » February 18th, 2018, 8:05 am

the only other things that may explain my bad performance is

1. my warmup

did 4*500 2 min rest at 138.5, 2 hrs before test. Probobly over did it here.

2. I did not eat anything the morning of.

I woke up at 6, my test was 5 hrs later.


3. also i think i've come down with something. I've developed, body aches, sore throat. etc. Although I'm not sure if this was triggered by my 2k, or that regardless of the 2k that I would have gotten sick.

Lwergos
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Re: 2k plateau hit me like a train

Post by Lwergos » February 18th, 2018, 8:11 am

hjs wrote:
Lwergos wrote:i'm 21

dl is almost 350

squat is 250

my lowest pull is 1:13

500m is 1:26.5

1k is 1:37

5k is 1:50

2 days before 2k I did a 1250 3m r + 750 @ 1:41.2

90% of training is ss.

these are splits ofc

i know youre thinking these times don't make much sense in terms of pauls law, but I've always been a better sprinter over endurance. Also my quads are adapting well to my training, they are thicc. It seems like my issue is with my weak af heart and crap quality blood. I also have thal minor

I should mention, as far as other medical issues go, I forgot to mention I've been having muscle cramps 24/7, my heart often skips a few beats here and there during training. But I started magnesium supplements and have started to feel better.
Your aerobic fitness is very much lacking, your sprinttimes are good, but your 1k is already getting weaker.
Only one way to get this better, lots of low rate long work. Think 2k plus 18/22 rate 18/22.
Re speed work, hardly needed, do instead 5k paced work. 1500x5 rest 5 or 4x2k. Your 5k is really not strong.

If you are really a pure sprinter, you can,t change that, your 2k can improve but will relative always stay behind your sprinting.
Keep working, have patience...... There are no magic things you can do.



Thing is, most of my meters are done as steady state. 3*20, 2*30, 2*45/18spm/@ 2:01-2:04 pace which feels pretty easy. (my hr will range from 160-175 on those splits)

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Re: 2k plateau hit me like a train

Post by Dangerscouse » February 18th, 2018, 8:23 am

I think you need to focus on 5k and aim to improve on your 1:50 pace. If you can sustain a 5k at, say 1:47 or preferably faster, at 28spm or above, the 2k will seem a lot easier. Too much steady state at low strokes will not be helping build the base for a 2k

The illness and lack of food won't have helped either.
46 HWT; 6' 4"; Liverpool 1k= 3:09; 2k= 6:36; 5k= 17:27; 6k= 21:23; 10k= 36:21 30mins= 8,356m 60mins= 16,317m HM= 1:18:40; FM= 2:49:39; 50k= 3:28:18; 100k= 7:52:44; 12hrs = 153km

"You reap what you Row"

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hjs
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Re: 2k plateau hit me like a train

Post by hjs » February 18th, 2018, 8:39 am

Lwergos wrote:


Thing is, most of my meters are done as steady state. 3*20, 2*30, 2*45/18spm/@ 2:01-2:04 pace which feels pretty easy. (my hr will range from 160-175 on those splits)
Yes, thats in line with your 2k, it is what it is, keep on working and slowly bring those down.

Re hf, without your rest and max, those numbers say little.

Try to get your 5k down, that will translate very well to your 2k. 1/2 speedsessions a week is enough, you can,t get around aerobic fitness.

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Re: 2k plateau hit me like a train

Post by RWAGR » February 18th, 2018, 9:01 am

I may be missing something here, but based on OP’s numbers this *must* be psychological. I have gone under 7’ (6.56.x) and indeed pulled 7.03.x last week at 90% effort. But my 5k, 30’, and 10k scores are pedestrian. And specifically my 5k split is 1.51.9, way off OP’s. So I don’t think training or fitness can be an issue. If I can pull 7’ at my levels, OP should be crushing that time from a purely physical standpoint. What am I missing?
Rob, 34, 6'1"/ 185cm , 233lb/ 105.7kg
2k: 6.56.3
5k: 18.24.9
30': 7968
10k: 38.29.0

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Re: 2k plateau hit me like a train

Post by JerekKruger » February 18th, 2018, 9:54 am

Based purely on your numbers I think you should be able to go sub-7 right now. When I rowed my 6:54 my 500m PB was 1:28, my 5k PB was about 1:53 and I doubt I could have gone sub 1:40 on a 1k, so you're faster than I was across the board. As such I suspect it is a combination of some sort of psychological block and, perhaps, a poor race strategy. Given your general strength over shorter distances I wonder if you're going out too fast and/or relying on a fast sprint at the finish.

As far as training is concerned Henry's (HJS) advice is right: steady state is where it's at. Given your current strength at sprinting I'd say you probably don't need to do any sprint work at all, instead doing longer interval sessions like 4x2k. Other than that it's simply a matter of time.

I notice that your weight is pretty low for your height. I assume that this is because you're an on the water lightweight rower. Given you assertion that you're more of a sprinter I'm not sure this is the best place for you: you've got relatively little muscle mass and what mass you have is relatively poor at doing aerobic work. Compared to more slow twitch dominant lightweight you're at a disadvantage (even more so if they are, say, 6'0" and can, hence, carry more muscle mass than you at the same weight). I'm not saying you should immediately start bulking up to be a heavyweight, just be aware you're taking a more difficult path.

Also it may be the case that your thalassemia is a limiting factor. I don't know how severe it is (I didn't even know what it was until I looked it up) but it certainly looks like it could affect aerobic ability. Again this isn't saying you should give up what you're doing, just something to be aware of.
Dangerscouse wrote:I think you need to focus on 5k and aim to improve on your 1:50 pace. If you can sustain a 5k at, say 1:47 or preferably faster, at 28spm or above, the 2k will seem a lot easier. Too much steady state at low strokes will not be helping build the base for a 2k
Whilst I don't disagree that improving his 5k is a great idea, a 1:47 5k equates to a 6:41.6 2k by Paul's law. Of course Paul's law isn't meant to be predictive, but the OP is relatively stronger over shorter distances so, if anything, you'd expect him to be even faster than it states. Even his current 1:50 splits 5k suggests a 2k of 6:53.
Tom | 33 | 6'6" | 93kg

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Lwergos
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Re: 2k plateau hit me like a train

Post by Lwergos » February 18th, 2018, 10:22 am

Bulking to hwt is off the table for now as it is not my limiting factor, it is my aerobics. Funny thing is, if i raced as a heavy I would have gotten dead last in the erg competion. 2 guys almost went sub 6 lol. in the lwt heat, with 6 other guys, I still managed a gold somehow. Still not impressive knowing that I did not improve in fitness over the last year.

idk I think my bad performance was attributed to other external factors as I mentioned above because I am 100% sure i'm fitter than a 145 split for a 2k.

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Re: 2k plateau hit me like a train

Post by Lwergos » February 18th, 2018, 10:46 am

also one thing I should reiterate: I think over the last 1-2 years i've become disastrously deficient in Mg. I was having violent muscle fasculations 24/7 along with irregular heart beat. I just started supplementing Mg 1 week ago and it may need some time to really work.

I think i'm going to re-try testing in a week. Going to do a lot of 8*500's and 5k paced workouts in the meantime.
Last edited by Lwergos on February 18th, 2018, 12:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 2k plateau hit me like a train

Post by JerekKruger » February 18th, 2018, 11:08 am

Bulking to heavyweight would, effectively, give you a boost to your aerobic fitness (well, as long as it was a lean bulk). VO2max increases with muscle mass as there is more muscle mass to burn oxygen. For sports like running this increase isn't enough to make up for the extra work needed to move the heavier person, but in rowing it is. This is (one of the reasons) why 1500m runners and rowers look so different, despite their sports having similar aerobic demands.

That said your heavyweight programme is a lot more competitive than your lightweight one so, indeed, it's not worth the switch.
Lwergos wrote:Going to do a lot of 8*500's and 5k paced workouts in the meantime.
Given you relative strength at sprinting I'd do 4x1000m rather than 8x500m.

I hope the magnesium supplementation helps.
Tom | 33 | 6'6" | 93kg

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Re: 2k plateau hit me like a train

Post by mdpfirrman » February 19th, 2018, 10:07 am

Lwergos wrote:also one thing I should reiterate: I think over the last 1-2 years i've become disastrously deficient in Mg. I was having violent muscle fasculations 24/7 along with irregular heart beat. I just started supplementing Mg 1 week ago and it may need some time to really work.

I think i'm going to re-try testing in a week. Going to do a lot of 8*500's and 5k paced workouts in the meantime.
Glad you've figured some of that out. Health is more important than erg scores in competitions. You had said earlier that you were guilty (at least at times) over undereating. Erg comps aren't worth that. At my height/weight, I probably could be a lightweight too. In order to do that, though, I'd have to first lean out to around 8% to 10% body fat, then start dropping muscle at that point. In the grand scheme of things, not worth it at all to me. I'd rather be a more natural weight relative to my build frame and muscle proportion now (I'm roughly 18% body fat now and comfortable with that).
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