Technique Feedback

General discussion on Training. How to get better on your erg, how to use your erg to get better at another sport, or anything else about improving your abilities.
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m06w41
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Technique Feedback

Post by m06w41 » July 3rd, 2018, 1:56 pm

Newish rower and while I've been rowing on and off for a little while. Couple goals in the wings (weight loss, CV improvement, Big Bend backpacking trip) and so I'm working on being more serious about rowing and any thoughts on form would be much appreciated. This was take a few days ago following one of the first week workouts from the Pete Plan. I'm slow, get winded and am somewhat tired in this video already but figured I'd show the worst of it :)

Pace at the moment is about 2:38 /500m, SPM around 20-21 usually with DR at 112. Training log in my signature may give you a better idea of my fitness level and thanks!

https://youtu.be/ZM0_J6Bjf5Y

*edited cause words are hard
Tracy Nolte
Male, 49, 5' 8"
Started The 24 Week Pete Plan 6/25/18 @ 197.6 lb
Current Weight 183.0
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hjs
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Re: Technique Feedback

Post by hjs » July 3rd, 2018, 2:27 pm

Would focus on one thing only, technique wise, getting your back to move. Idea should be to move from 11 oclock to 13 oclock. You now have zero movement, that is really holding you back.
At the catch, get your torso close to your thighs and at the finish lean back. You can practice this sitting on the ground or erg, and just make that movement. Your shoulders should be 3/4 inches closer to the monitor. Do this and you get heaps of extra lenght.
First get that fixed before anything else can be seen.
For my training see twitter @Hjsrowing

Dangerscouse
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Re: Technique Feedback

Post by Dangerscouse » July 3rd, 2018, 3:11 pm

I agree with Henry (HJS) but try and keep the entire rowing action smoother and on more of a straight line. There's no need to drop it down on the recovery.

Imagine that the chain is rigid and only goes backward and forward and not up and down. This is something that frustrates me but it's not essential to change. It just looks like an ugly action to me
44 Years Old; 6' 4"; 95kg; Liverpool, England 2k= 6:38; 5k= 17:27; 6k= 21:23; 10k= 36:21 30mins= 8,264m 60mins= 16,317m HM= 1:18:40; FM= 2:49:39; 50k= 3:28:18; 75k=5:29:15; 100k= 7:52:44; 12hrs = 153km

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hjs
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Re: Technique Feedback

Post by hjs » July 3rd, 2018, 4:54 pm

Dangerscouse wrote:I agree with Henry (HJS) but try and keep the entire rowing action smoother and on more of a straight line. There's no need to drop it down on the recovery.

Imagine that the chain is rigid and only goes backward and forward and not up and down. This is something that frustrates me but it's not essential to change. It just looks like an ugly action to me
For low rate much more comfortable, would keep the hands low, high rate is an other matter.
For my training see twitter @Hjsrowing

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Re: Technique Feedback

Post by m06w41 » July 3rd, 2018, 9:15 pm

Thanks for the feedback. I.suspected given feedback in another thread, that I was too upright and it's good to see that's the case. I've never had back problems and worried, perhaps too much, that leaning forward I was incorrectly hunching over. But I just did week two internal in the pete plan and my stroke length was 1.18-1.24 range. It seems I lack flexibility but my back doesn't feel badly whatsoever though it seems tired.

Will post another video later to see if there are other improvements.

I've wondered about the chain drop. When referring to higher or lower rate, what's the rationale behind keeping the chain level versus letting it drop?

Thanks again
Tracy Nolte
Male, 49, 5' 8"
Started The 24 Week Pete Plan 6/25/18 @ 197.6 lb
Current Weight 183.0
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hjs
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Re: Technique Feedback

Post by hjs » July 4th, 2018, 2:56 am

m06w41 wrote:Thanks for the feedback. I.suspected given feedback in another thread, that I was too upright and it's good to see that's the case. I've never had back problems and worried, perhaps too much, that leaning forward I was incorrectly hunching over. But I just did week two internal in the pete plan and my stroke length was 1.18-1.24 range. It seems I lack flexibility but my back doesn't feel badly whatsoever though it seems tired.

Will post another video later to see if there are other improvements.

I've wondered about the chain drop. When referring to higher or lower rate, what's the rationale behind keeping the chain level versus letting it drop?

Thanks again
At lower rates, recovery time is pretty long, keeping your arms out and high costs energy.
At higher rates much less time, also less time to get the hands into the position.
On water, you have to drop the hands, to get the oars above water.

Re back, bend from the hips, not overly in the back itself.
For my training see twitter @Hjsrowing

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jackarabit
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Re: Technique Feedback

Post by jackarabit » July 4th, 2018, 7:36 am

Do static stretches for gastrocs, soleus, achilles tendons, hams, glutes, lumbar region. Runner/hurdler stretches are good. Look up backstops drill for erg. Do arms only (hands away) from finish position in a defined, exaggerated manner to get those arms out of your lap. Main reason to do them (on erg) is to: 1) prove you have the strength to repeatedly cantilever your arms away from body to keep them out of the way of the rising knees, 2) exploit the weight of the cantilevered handle and arms as a gravitational lever assisting your upper body to rock over from the hip joints. Over time, mobility of your upper body at catch and finish should become possible, a missing propulsive force will come online, drive will get longer, average power/stroke and pace will improve. :P
There are two types of people in this world: Those who can extrapolate from incomplete data

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mdpfirrman
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Re: Technique Feedback

Post by mdpfirrman » July 9th, 2018, 4:59 pm

@ Tracy - good to put a face to the name! Sorry I didn't see this before. The others on here have way more experience than I do but one thing struck me in the video. You seem (to me) to not be pushing off with your legs with enough power and you're well into the stroke before you flatten your feet to the foot plate.

This drill (though you don't want to continue rowing this way) helped me a lot get a feel for pushing off with the legs. Some really technical rowers don't like Dark Horse rowing all that much but I found this helpful.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRHEd7W5qVU
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Re: Technique Feedback

Post by m06w41 » July 10th, 2018, 8:35 pm

mdpfirrman wrote:@ Tracy - good to put a face to the name! Sorry I didn't see this before. The others on here have way more experience than I do but one thing struck me in the video. You seem (to me) to not be pushing off with your legs with enough power and you're well into the stroke before you flatten your feet to the foot plate.

This drill (though you don't want to continue rowing this way) helped me a lot get a feel for pushing off with the legs. Some really technical rowers don't like Dark Horse rowing all that much but I found this helpful.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRHEd7W5qVU
Perfect, and thanks Mike. I'll give that a shot and here's my comment/question. I'm not very flexible at the moment still. My stroke length is consistently longer now (1.21-1.24) as I'm rocking more now than in the video but I'm still unclear on where to begin the catch. How far forward is too forward, if that makes any sense. Definitely though, I push off the ball of my foot and understand what you're saying about not getting flat footed until much later into the stroke. I'll give it a shot and practice that because you're right, I'm probably not driving much from my legs.

What's the reason for folks not liking DH?

Also, will post a new video and get some feedback on how or if I've progressed soon.

Thanks again.
Tracy Nolte
Male, 49, 5' 8"
Started The 24 Week Pete Plan 6/25/18 @ 197.6 lb
Current Weight 183.0
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Ombrax
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Re: Technique Feedback

Post by Ombrax » July 11th, 2018, 12:13 am

m06w41 wrote:I'm rocking more now than in the video but I'm still unclear on where to begin the catch. How far forward is too forward, if that makes any sense.
Shins essentially vertical at the catch, no farther than that.

Torso:

At the catch up to a bit past 1:00, some folks say up to 2:00
At the finish back to around 11:00

Here's a useful image:

http://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/t ... scles-used

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Re: Technique Feedback

Post by mdpfirrman » July 11th, 2018, 9:01 am

Tracy - to answer your question, that's why that video helped me. I was overreaching at the catch and, basically, when I started feeling myself going up on the balls of my feet (and off my flat foot well connected to the foot pad) that was my cue to start the stroke. If you practice this way for a while and make sure you're sitting upright, it does give you a much better feel for powering off your legs. I had a really bad tendency not to swing my torso back too early in the drive. Just when you're feeling yourself move off of your flat foot to your ball of your foot, drive then with the legs while your body is still leaning slightly forward. The legs should come (in proper sequence) before the torso does. This will likely feel unusual for you to start (it did me) and it works muscles that you haven't used as much -- really works the core and muscles around the hip hinge.

I would say doing this and rowing unstrapped (something else that forces your hands to go back quicker after the finish) for warmups and cool downs helped me more than anything.

Longer term, there's nothing wrong with going up on the balls of your feet once you understand driving with the legs. This is more of a "cheat" way (in the video) to understand a concept. Not sure why some don't like Dark Horse but perhaps it's because of that, they are using some tricks to explain concepts. Just different I suppose than traditional training.
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Re: Technique Feedback

Post by m06w41 » July 11th, 2018, 4:14 pm

@ombrax - thanks for that. I may perhaps be swinging to far far forward now, but will post an update video soon. Still learning how to make it all flow together. As with dancing, it seems like I have 2 left feet when trying to hook it all together in a coordinated manner.

This combined with Mike's comments on balls of the feet I have some more work to do to link it all together.

I feel a bit more achy-ness in my back. I'm not certain that means I'm leaning too far forward and it's not hurting, perhaps it's just simply not enough fitness.

I'll upload a video to get some more feedback.
Tracy Nolte
Male, 49, 5' 8"
Started The 24 Week Pete Plan 6/25/18 @ 197.6 lb
Current Weight 183.0
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hobbit
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Re: Technique Feedback

Post by hobbit » July 14th, 2018, 5:54 pm

Dangerscouse wrote:I agree with Henry (HJS) but try and keep the entire rowing action smoother and on more of a straight line. There's no need to drop it down on the recovery.

Imagine that the chain is rigid and only goes backward and forward and not up and down. This is something that frustrates me but it's not essential to change. It just looks like an ugly action to me
These critiques are always full of useful advice for everyone. Makes you think about what you're doing right and what can be improved. Initially, I drop(ped) my hands on the recovery to stop the chain juddering. After reading this, I applied the advice above and found that I don't need to do that any more. It made a significant difference to my catch - smoother and more powerful.
M 63 163cm/5' 4" 54kg/120lb
2k 8:16 -- 5k 21:03 -- 30' 7038m -- 10k 43:51 -- 60' 13309m -- HM 1:40:17

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Re: Technique Feedback

Post by Dangerscouse » July 15th, 2018, 5:17 am

hobbit wrote:
Dangerscouse wrote:I agree with Henry (HJS) but try and keep the entire rowing action smoother and on more of a straight line. There's no need to drop it down on the recovery.

Imagine that the chain is rigid and only goes backward and forward and not up and down. This is something that frustrates me but it's not essential to change. It just looks like an ugly action to me
These critiques are always full of useful advice for everyone. Makes you think about what you're doing right and what can be improved. Initially, I drop(ped) my hands on the recovery to stop the chain juddering. After reading this, I applied the advice above and found that I don't need to do that any more. It made a significant difference to my catch - smoother and more powerful.
Good to hear that. Rowing should be a smooth and graceful action backwards and forwards. Only the sweat, grunting and gurning should evidence the effort :D
44 Years Old; 6' 4"; 95kg; Liverpool, England 2k= 6:38; 5k= 17:27; 6k= 21:23; 10k= 36:21 30mins= 8,264m 60mins= 16,317m HM= 1:18:40; FM= 2:49:39; 50k= 3:28:18; 75k=5:29:15; 100k= 7:52:44; 12hrs = 153km

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Re: Technique Feedback

Post by m06w41 » July 17th, 2018, 11:24 am

Worked on no dropping the chain recently. At 22 or 23 spm it seems easier to keep the handle level but still working on incorporating the changes. Will upload a video tomorrow from the 4th week interval of the Pete Plan. I still feel though like i've got 2 left feet in all this, but hopefully there is some improvement
Tracy Nolte
Male, 49, 5' 8"
Started The 24 Week Pete Plan 6/25/18 @ 197.6 lb
Current Weight 183.0
Training Log

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