Altitude

General discussion on Training. How to get better on your erg, how to use your erg to get better at another sport, or anything else about improving your abilities.
MomofJBN
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Altitude

Post by MomofJBN » March 24th, 2006, 4:24 pm

I live at 7,000'. I'm just wondering if there is any formula that people use to figure out what a given pace at altitude might correspond to at sea level.

In other words, am I pathetically slow, or can I blame it on where I live. :lol:
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Re: Altitude

Post by Godfried » March 24th, 2006, 4:37 pm

MomofJBN wrote:In other words, am I pathetically slow, or can I blame it on where I live. :lol:
You don't say how fast you are, so yes, you are pathetically slow. :oops: :oops: :oops:

:evil: :evil: :evil: No, if you don't like where you live, just move. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

See here or here for some info.

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Re: Altitude

Post by tennstrike » March 24th, 2006, 5:31 pm

MomofJBN wrote:I live at 7,000'. I'm just wondering if there is any formula that people use to figure out what a given pace at altitude might correspond to at sea level.
:lol:
You would definitely be faster at sea level. I do not know about any formula, however. When I was skiing in Idaho in December, it affected both my strength but endurance was even more affected. You might look around the Concept2 site pertaining to CrashB's. Concept2 was willing to pay the fare for people who qualified locally at a particular time but the time was increased for altitude. You might be able to translate this time to watts and then infer a percentage.
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Post by johnlvs2run » March 24th, 2006, 5:42 pm

The best comparisons are probably world class performances and World Records from running. Even so, there are few international competitions that are held at altitude. The last one was in 1968 in Mexico City at 7553 feet altitude.

At these Olympic Games, there were a number of records, most notably in the shorter events. There were World Records in the 400 meters, 800 meters, and Kip Keino smashed Herb Elliott's 1500 meter Olympic record set 8 years earlier in Rome. Kip Keino lead from 400 meters to the finish and defeated world record holder Jim Ryun in the process. I was in a room full of people as they were going into the last lap, Keino with a 20 meter lead and accellerating down the backstretch it was becoming more obvious that Ryun was not going to catch him. This was one of the greatest races in history.

The distance events were slower than at sea level. Double Olympic marathon champion Abebe Bikila was favored, though he had an injury and told his countryman to go ahead. Wolde, who had also taken the silver medal on the 10,000 meters, ran solo for the last twelve kilometers and won the race by over three minutes in 2.20:26.4.

Three years later Wolde won the bronze medal in Munich, Germany, in the time of 2:15:08, five minutes faster than he'd run in Mexico City.

It takes time to get acclimatized to altitude. Once you do, the differences from sea level are not as great.
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Re: Altitude

Post by Bob S. » March 24th, 2006, 8:21 pm

MomofJBN wrote:I live at 7,000'. I'm just wondering if there is any formula that people use to figure out what a given pace at altitude might correspond to at sea level.
In other words, am I pathetically slow, or can I blame it on where I live. :lol:
The following is from an article entitled, "The Physics of Ergometers." I don't have the author's name and I have lost the URL, but it should be easy to find with Google.

Quote:
14. Effect of Altitude

An approximate formula for the rate of change of air-pressure p with altitude is:

(14.1) p = p0 exp(-z/7000)
where p0 is the sea-level pressure (approx 1000mb) and z is the altitude above sea-level in metres. This formula corresponds to a pressure decrease of 1% for every 70m increase altitude.
Self-calibrating ergs such as the Concept and RowPerfect would compensate for this by calculating a reduced drag factor (section 7), so still give an accurate measurement of the work done.

This means that, for a given lung-volume and breathing rate, the amount of Oxygen taken into the bloodstream would also decrease by 1% for every 70m. If oxygen uptake through the lungs is the limiting factor in aerobic power output, then you would expect your erg power scores to fall off at the same rate (or split times to increase by 1% for every 210 m due to the cube relationship between power and speed, Eq. 4.5). E.g., in Denver (altitude 1500m), the air pressure is only 80% of the sea level value, so anyone moving up from sea level and trying a long-distance erg would probably find their power reduced by 20% (or times increased by approximately 7%).

Similarly, someone moving in the opposite direction (1500m down to sea level) would find 25% more oxygen in each lungful of air.
End of quote.

Bob S.

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Re: Altitude

Post by Bob S. » March 24th, 2006, 8:42 pm

Bob S. wrote:The following is from an article entitled, "The Physics of Ergometers." I don't have the author's name and I have lost the URL, but it should be easy to find with Google.
Bob S.
Here is the URL for the original article:

http://www-atm.physics.ox.ac.uk/rowing/physics/

Bob S.

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Post by dennish » March 24th, 2006, 9:36 pm

Momo, I live at about 7600+ (Evergreen, Colo) and find for racing the 2k I will improve about 2.5 seconds per 500m. at sealevel. Mike Caviston and Graham Watt, both damn fine rowers and ergers, have been here and found that their workout times (as opposed to racing which they did not do here) were about 3 seconds slower per 500 than at sealevel. The way I got the 2.5 for my own improvements was to take the difference from my time at CRASH-B from the time I did at the qualifying race that given year at the Mile High Sprints. I have done that combo ten years and the average improvement for 500m was 2.5. I have also done some training at sealevel and and for example I have done 16382m in an hour row at sealevel and the best I can get at altitude has been in the 15900+ range. This is all just experencial stuff and Bobs formula is much more firmly grounded in science. In my opinion, Go very cautiously with what Mr. Rupp has to say about altitude training. dennnis

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Post by johnlvs2run » March 24th, 2006, 10:12 pm

Caution is for whimps.
73 5'8 155
age 70+ world record pace per weight percentages
skierg: 100m 87.4 / 500m 86.2 / 1k 85.9 / 2k 89.4 / 5k 87.6 / 10k 89.4 / 60' 92.0 / 21k 93.6
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Post by MomofJBN » March 25th, 2006, 2:02 am

Thanks everyone. The theory is great, but Dennis, your answer is what I was hoping for. Someone with IRL experience. I'm in Flagstaff, AZ so in your general area.

I will have a chance to erg at lower elevation when I visit my parents in the summer, but their erg is 20 yrs old, and I think those are calibrated differently. Plus it's on slides, so there are lots of variables there.
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Post by Sitwronge » March 25th, 2006, 5:13 pm

dennnis, your answer is what i was hoping for too. i'm just like you and mr. rupp's ideas are way too hard for me to understand and comprehend and besides he is a lot faster than me so i'm just going to subtract a lot of seconds from my times the way you do! i'm very happy that i'm not the only whimpy sissy erger around here! thank you very much dennnis, sitwronge. p.s. now this makes my times look a lot faster than they are.
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Post by Citroen » March 25th, 2006, 7:58 pm

Sitwronge wrote:dennnis, your answer is what i was hoping for too. i'm just like you and mr. rupp's ideas are way too hard for me to understand and comprehend and besides he is a lot faster than me so i'm just going to subtract a lot of seconds from my times the way you do! i'm very happy that i'm not the only whimpy sissy erger around here! thank you very much dennnis, sitwronge. p.s. now this makes my times look a lot faster than they are.
And your 2K time is ...?
(Rupp, we know this is your stupid alias. Rupp, you are a total bozo.)

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Post by JimR » March 26th, 2006, 2:55 pm

Citroen wrote:
Sitwronge wrote:dennnis, your answer is what i was hoping for too. i'm just like you and mr. rupp's ideas are way too hard for me to understand and comprehend and besides he is a lot faster than me so i'm just going to subtract a lot of seconds from my times the way you do! i'm very happy that i'm not the only whimpy sissy erger around here! thank you very much dennnis, sitwronge. p.s. now this makes my times look a lot faster than they are.
And your 2K time is ...?
(Rupp, we know this is your stupid alias. Rupp, you are a total bozo.)
I thought John Rupp was a stupid alias for someone else ... now I'm so confused?!

JimR

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Post by tgeldean » April 2nd, 2006, 3:09 pm

dennis wrote:Momo, I live at about 7600+ (Evergreen, Colo) and find for racing the 2k I will improve about 2.5 seconds per 500m. at sealevel. Mike Caviston and Graham Watt, both damn fine rowers and ergers, have been here and found that their workout times (as opposed to racing which they did not do here) were about 3 seconds slower per 500 than at sealevel. The way I got the 2.5 for my own improvements was to take the difference from my time at CRASH-B from the time I did at the qualifying race that given year at the Mile High Sprints. I have done that combo ten years and the average improvement for 500m was 2.5. I have also done some training at sealevel and and for example I have done 16382m in an hour row at sealevel and the best I can get at altitude has been in the 15900+ range. This is all just experencial stuff and Bobs formula is much more firmly grounded in science. In my opinion, Go very cautiously with what Mr. Rupp has to say about altitude training. dennnis
Dennis -

I just made a couple of posts on this topic on the "General" area of the forum, before I found this thread. I've met you a few times back in the late 90s when I did the Mile High Sprints a few times. I'm a tall runner (not close to LWT now, but will get back there) that has dabbled with indoor rowing off and on over the years.

I have more of a track record (pun intended) to go on with converting running times to sea level. I live and train around Boulder - so 5000-5500' depending on where I'm at. Here's one of my main curiousities in this discussion:

If I was to row a longer distance performance at sea level (say 6000m), I would be pretty comfortable in saying I could row quite a bit faster than here, as I've done plenty of work at the faster paces already. However, as a long distance runner, my strength is my endurance base. I recently rowed 6:36.3 (1:39.1/500m) here, but the fastest I've recently rowed for a hard 500m is only 1:33.8. So, would I be able to row much faster for a flat out 500m at sea level? Otherwise, when I go to sea level, how much faster will the improved aerobic ability (higher V02 Max) allow me to get if I'm not muscularly ready to handle the faster pace? I imagine part of the plan will be to do more faster work (intervals and efforts shorter than 2000m) as a sea level race approaches.

Any insight you (or others) may have is appreciated.

Tim Geldean
60:00 17018m / 30:00 8747m / 4:00 1251m / Half Marathon 1:15:04.7 / 10K 34:31.7 / 6K 20:37.3 / 5K 16:56.1 / 2K 6:29.6 / 1K 3:08.1 / 500m 1:31.1.

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Post by dennish » April 3rd, 2006, 11:43 am

Tim, A lot of what you asked is quite beyond me. I can speak experiencially, but not scientifically. Yes more specific training for a flat out 500 would be valuable. I have found that I have better luck with distances at 2k or above at making big improvements at sealevel with 500 meter pace. For example, the fastest 500 I recall doing at altitude (evergreen) is like 1:35 or high 34, at sealevel a couple of years back I actaully got 1:32+. About the same improvement I can make at the longer distances. But the key I think is that the 500's were just mad thrashing. At the longer distances I feel much more in control (not good technique mind you, just more controlled). You have some very respectable times and if you are moving your training over to rowing, indoor or on the water, you should look into some one who can give you very solid coaching grounded in science. Two I have had success with are Paul Smith or Tom Bohrer. Send me a PM if you have more questions.
dennis

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Post by tgeldean » April 3rd, 2006, 12:34 pm

Dennis-

Thanks for the advice and compliments. I may be sending you a PM, as I'm serious about making significant improvements - at this point indoors only.

And you've continued to put up some very impressive times, Dennis. Keep it goin'.

Thanks,

Tim Geldean
60:00 17018m / 30:00 8747m / 4:00 1251m / Half Marathon 1:15:04.7 / 10K 34:31.7 / 6K 20:37.3 / 5K 16:56.1 / 2K 6:29.6 / 1K 3:08.1 / 500m 1:31.1.

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