Intervals: when to lengthen them & when to just do more

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Gammmmo
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Intervals: when to lengthen them & when to just do more

Post by Gammmmo » July 19th, 2018, 9:07 am

Some people on here will know I am training to PB at 1K atm. I've been doing some intervals workouts (actually fairly unusual for me for any length of time, likely to my detriment). First I did 4x350m, then I did 3x500m and then I thought maybe I should shoot for 2x750m or maybe 4x500m. So, in short, how do YOU decide how many intervals to do AND how long they'll be? I am assuming we are building in complete recovery so let's take the recovery portion variable out of the equation.
46M, 5'11" 74kg (finally bulking up...a bit!), ex bike time trialler.
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Targets: 36:59(10K), >8200m for 30mins, 6:44(2K), 3:12(1K)

Erg on!

bob01
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Re: Intervals: when to lengthen them & when to just do more

Post by bob01 » July 19th, 2018, 10:11 am

You need to build up lactate tolerance... you have to produce it 1st

Some power work good too

Id go with intetvals with long (eg 3 to 5mins)and short rest intervals

Still like the pms 30secs on and off
.

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Gammmmo
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Re: Intervals: when to lengthen them & when to just do more

Post by Gammmmo » July 19th, 2018, 10:14 am

bob01 wrote:You need to build up lactate tolerance... you have to produce it 1st

Some power work good too

Id go with intetvals with long (eg 3 to 5mins)and short rest intervals

Still like the pms 30secs on and off
.
Isn't there a difference though between lactate tolerance (short rests) and complete rest ones that get one used to doing the intensity? To me, there's two different adaptions there, hence me not wanting to introduce that variable. Might be wrong though!
46M, 5'11" 74kg (finally bulking up...a bit!), ex bike time trialler.
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Targets: 36:59(10K), >8200m for 30mins, 6:44(2K), 3:12(1K)

Erg on!

bob01
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Re: Intervals: when to lengthen them & when to just do more

Post by bob01 » July 19th, 2018, 10:23 am

Yes...Lactate tolerance and lactate production.

I think you need both..extra power ent gonna be negative.

I assume you have the aerobic base... but that needs maintaining..... 3min +(?) effort is still largely aerobic.

Specesifity is as always vital
.
I would suggest holding stroke length etc at race requirments

Dangerscouse
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Re: Intervals: when to lengthen them & when to just do more

Post by Dangerscouse » July 19th, 2018, 11:04 am

Tbh, I never do intervals but I do see a lot of rowers on Insta doing a big variety of distances, reps and rest times.

If I was going to do intervals, and I think I will start, I would find between 500m and 1250m probably the best range. A mix of them all depending on time, general 'feel' and desire will dictate the specifics. You're disciplined enough to push yourself when you need to.

I would possibly push the overall distance to 4k-6k, or until you can't neg split anymore starting with a fairly tough benchmark

Years ago I used to do 30 secs on 30 secs off for about 7 or 8 reps. That was a good one too.
44 Years Old; 6' 4"; 95kg; Liverpool, England 2k= 6:38; 5k= 17:27; 6k= 21:23; 10k= 36:21 30mins= 8,264m 60mins= 16,317m HM= 1:18:40; FM= 2:49:39; 50k= 3:28:18; 75k=5:29:15; 100k= 7:52:44; 12hrs = 153km

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NavigationHazard
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Re: Intervals: when to lengthen them & when to just do more

Post by NavigationHazard » July 19th, 2018, 3:10 pm

How are you defining "complete recovery"?

And are you considering stroke rate as a variable?
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Gammmmo
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Re: Intervals: when to lengthen them & when to just do more

Post by Gammmmo » July 19th, 2018, 3:25 pm

Hi Nav. No, am not taking stroke rate into consideration other than I am very aware on a session whether I've mainly used "quality" full strokes and when I've shortened the stroke and/or half-slided. Complete recovery - don't use HR, so going by feel i.e. mentally ready to "go again". Erring very much on the side of caution too.
46M, 5'11" 74kg (finally bulking up...a bit!), ex bike time trialler.
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Targets: 36:59(10K), >8200m for 30mins, 6:44(2K), 3:12(1K)

Erg on!

sdr2017
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Re: Intervals: when to lengthen them & when to just do more

Post by sdr2017 » July 20th, 2018, 12:11 am

Thank you for the thread. I am also working on 1K to build up speed for 2k later. I am far below your pace but am setting PBs.

If 8X500 is the standard set for a 2K, wouldn't 8X250 be good for a 1K?

I did some timed intervals at 1:30 with 1:30 rest. The point of those was to work on my speed and strength. Prior to this I have been doing a lot of SS rows.

Scott
1 min: 296 M; 500M 1:40.9; 1K 3:42.0; 2K 7:57.2; 5K 21:01.9; 10K 42:45.6; 30 min: 7147M

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59 Yrs, 5' 7" / 179 lbs (170 cm/81 kg)

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NavigationHazard
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Re: Intervals: when to lengthen them & when to just do more

Post by NavigationHazard » July 20th, 2018, 12:40 am

There are intervals and there are intervals, and they don't necessarily need to be all that high intensity to be purposeful. The reason I asked about stroke rate is that there's a strong argument to be made regarding habituation: rowing involves repeated movement sequences that have physiological consequences. To my mind, therefore, it makes sense to devote at least some portion of your training to work at or near pace/rate combos you hope to achieve in whatever you're pointing towards. Or to put it another way, you need to get used to what it's going to feel like to produce your target splits when the time comes to produce them. If you've spent all your time training at stroke rates of (say) 18 or (say) 46, you're probably going to struggle biomechanically to rate the 32 or so that's typical for many people for a competition 2k.
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bob01
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Re: Intervals: when to lengthen them & when to just do more

Post by bob01 » July 20th, 2018, 1:41 am

NavigationHazard wrote:There are intervals and there are intervals, and they don't necessarily need to be all that high intensity to be purposeful. The reason I asked about stroke rate is that there's a strong argument to be made regarding habituation: rowing involves repeated movement sequences that have physiological consequences. To my mind, therefore, it makes sense to devote at least some portion of your training to work at or near pace/rate combos you hope to achieve in whatever you're pointing towards. Or to put it another way, you need to get used to what it's going to feel like to produce your target splits when the time comes to produce them. If you've spent all your time training at stroke rates of (say) 18 or (say) 46, you're probably going to struggle biomechanically to rate the 32 or so that's typical for many people for a competition 2k.
I concure

I have noticed on my 18spm sets my stroke length is 1.40 ish
As my sr increases my stroke length tends to decrease

Whilst i believe there is a place for short sprints ... these i believe need to be at race stroke length. Whilst not knocking those with supet fast 100 times.i question their benefit for longer rows... i notice someone had a st rate of 62... their stroke length must be about 50% of their distance rows.

Similar argument for df too i suspect

Dangerscouse
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Re: Intervals: when to lengthen them & when to just do more

Post by Dangerscouse » July 20th, 2018, 8:13 am

NavigationHazard wrote:There are intervals and there are intervals, and they don't necessarily need to be all that high intensity to be purposeful. The reason I asked about stroke rate is that there's a strong argument to be made regarding habituation: rowing involves repeated movement sequences that have physiological consequences. To my mind, therefore, it makes sense to devote at least some portion of your training to work at or near pace/rate combos you hope to achieve in whatever you're pointing towards. Or to put it another way, you need to get used to what it's going to feel like to produce your target splits when the time comes to produce them. If you've spent all your time training at stroke rates of (say) 18 or (say) 46, you're probably going to struggle biomechanically to rate the 32 or so that's typical for many people for a competition 2k.
Great comments Nav
44 Years Old; 6' 4"; 95kg; Liverpool, England 2k= 6:38; 5k= 17:27; 6k= 21:23; 10k= 36:21 30mins= 8,264m 60mins= 16,317m HM= 1:18:40; FM= 2:49:39; 50k= 3:28:18; 75k=5:29:15; 100k= 7:52:44; 12hrs = 153km

Instagram: stuwenman

bob01
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Re: Intervals: when to lengthen them & when to just do more

Post by bob01 » July 20th, 2018, 9:15 am

A better way of putting what I was trying to say..... specificity

Cyclingman1
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Re: Intervals: when to lengthen them & when to just do more

Post by Cyclingman1 » July 20th, 2018, 2:12 pm

Interval distance is closely related to race distance. If one is shooting for 1K, it makes no sense to do 750, 1K intervals. What would the pace be? Intervals are usually done below race pace. I want to do 1:40 for my 1K race, but I do 1:35 for my 1K intervals? That's ridiculous. For 1K race, I wouldn't see intervals beyond 500m and that actually seems too long. I would think 250m at varying reps and pace and rest would work best for 1K. The idea is to get used to race pace by going faster in intervals.
JimG, Gainesville, Ga, 72,184lb,76”. PBs since age 66: (.5,1,2,5,6,10K)1:30.8, 3:14.1, 6:40.7, 17:34, 21:18.1, 36:21.7;
(1,30,60’)332, 8337, 16237; (HM)1:20:25.

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Gammmmo
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Re: Intervals: when to lengthen them & when to just do more

Post by Gammmmo » July 23rd, 2018, 3:22 am

Cyclingman1 wrote:Interval distance is closely related to race distance. If one is shooting for 1K, it makes no sense to do 750, 1K intervals. What would the pace be? Intervals are usually done below race pace. I want to do 1:40 for my 1K race, but I do 1:35 for my 1K intervals? That's ridiculous. For 1K race, I wouldn't see intervals beyond 500m and that actually seems too long. I would think 250m at varying reps and pace and rest would work best for 1K. The idea is to get used to race pace by going faster in intervals.
Hi Jim, thanks for your input, it is appreciated. I think the intervals I'm doing are partly aimed at just building mental fortitude at the distance - my previous PB of 3:14 was done with a "fly and die" approach so in all honesty I ought to be able to beat that with a more managed effort. I do find such a big difference between 250m efforts and 1K ones - maybe I should be doing alot more 250s (at a pace a bit slower than I do them at max) and with a shorter rest interval? I've not played with that yet. I like the idea of doing Zatopek style sessions along these lines.

As an aside, intervals I did on the bike fell into 4 main categories, and in order of how often I did them:
1. 2x20mins at FTP (60mins max power) with 5 mins rest. This was a bread and butter workout.
2. 5x5mins (5 min rests) aimed at vo2 max development
3. Micro intervals (20-30s) on/off
4. 1 min on/off intervals at max effort (only tried this a few times - it was savage).
46M, 5'11" 74kg (finally bulking up...a bit!), ex bike time trialler.
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Targets: 36:59(10K), >8200m for 30mins, 6:44(2K), 3:12(1K)

Erg on!

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NavigationHazard
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Re: Intervals: when to lengthen them & when to just do more

Post by NavigationHazard » July 23rd, 2018, 7:44 am

With respect, I again suggest that there are intervals and there are intervals and there are intervals.

Yes, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to train for a 1k trial by doing flat-out 750m or 1k repeats. But if what you want to do is work at intensities in what the C2 Interactive programme calls the "AT" band, which is just below threshold level, longer work intervals make eminent sense. By way of analogy, I've borrowed some of Gammmmo's numbers from his signature and plugged a hypothetical profile into the online C2 Interactive site at https://indoorsportservices.co.uk/training/interactive.

This fictitious Gammmmo is 46, has a 6:48 2k, is pointing towards a 2k race 16 weeks away, is a well-trained athlete who's been at it for 3 years or more, has a resting HR of 55 and a max of 185, and can handle 7 sessions a week. Here's what the Interactive engine spits out as a training programme:

Image

All those AT sessions (80-85% of Heart Rate Reserve; 70-80% of 2k power in watts) are precisely longer, moderate intensity work intervals. They're expressed in the Programme in terms of time rather than distance. But they work out distance-wise to at least 65% of the target 2000m. The shortest multiple-rep AT intervals are the 4 x 5' in week 6 session 2. Done at a 1:52.5 pace, which is squarely in the middle of the AT band for our fictitious version of Gammmmo, he'll cover 1333m in each one. The longest are several 12' sets, e.g. the 3 x 12' in week 12 session 2. Assume a somewhat slower pace of 1:55 in view of the longer duration and those work out to 3130m.

I freely grant that a 1k trial has somewhat different physiological requirements than does a 2k. You're going to go faster, over half the distance, and so your training ought to reflect that. Less base and more superstructure, to put it in vulgar Marxist terms. But there's no reason to think that AT training along similar lines as above has no place at all in prepping for a 1k....
63 MH 6' 6"

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