Is it "OK" to squat the day after deadlifting?

[Gammmmo]

Started getting a little pushed for time with my weights sessions. I was starting out with overhead press, squats, deadlifts, and then fitting in whatever else I could in the 60-75mins window I typically have. Would the body react favourably from a muscle building standpoint and progression, if I moved just the squatting to the following day? Would the deadlifting and squatting be using too many of the same muscles?

I would like to state that I am still treating both deadlifting and especially so squatting as building a "skill" rather than ever going near failure in each set, at this stage. Partly from a recovey point of view and partly due to safety concerns. Cheers...

[KeithT]

Started getting a little pushed for time with my weights sessions. I was starting out with overhead press, squats, deadlifts, and then fitting in whatever else I could in the 60-75mins window I typically have. Would the body react favourably from a muscle building standpoint and progression, if I moved just the squatting to the following day? Would the deadlifting and squatting be using too many of the same muscles?

I would like to state that I am still treating both deadlifting and especially so squatting as building a "skill" rather than ever going near failure in each set, at this stage. Partly from a recovey point of view and partly due to safety concerns. Cheers...

I actually think you would be better off to do squats and DLs on different days as opposed to the same day. They do work some of the same muscles but DLs hit back and posterior chain more and not much quads. Also, if not going really heavy or to failure then I see even less issue. If you do go heavy or really hard on one or the other then you would be best to put a few days between or even alternate weeks.

[StrengthCoachWill]

I would not recommend this, especially considering the additional training stress on the back and legs of rowing/erging.

I typically program two full-body sessions per week, occasionally ticking up to 3/wk in times of less-strenuous rowing training. For the college men I coach, this is winter break and summer break. For the masters athletes, it's only if they want to when they are diminishing their rowing training, eg. following a race with another race not upcoming for some months.

Session A consists of an upper body pressing exercise, a squat, and then assistance work that includes Romanian deadlifts.

Session B consists of an upper body pressing exercise, a deadlift, and then assistance work that includes single-leg squats.

A day between each session. Most take two days and do them on a Mon/Thurs kind of schedule. This way we cover our bases, working the relevant muscles for rowing performance as well as those for muscular balance and reducing risk of injury, and also practicing the relevant motor patterns so technique still feels "sharp" despite a week away from the main work exercise. And, most importantly, leaving room for the athlete to grow, improve from the training, and have energy left over for rowing and improving from that training as well.

Typically, when I see questions about "how to fit X in," I find that people are trying to do too much strength training. Either too many sessions, too many exercises in each session, or too many sets/reps for each exercise. Even without training to failure, training is still stressful and requires recovery to make improvement. Don't just think about what training you can do, think about what training you can improve from. The "I can survive this" level is a LOT higher than the "I can make improvement with this" level.

[G-dub]

I’m intrigued by the comment about “doing things that one can improve from”. Weight training can be its own rabbit hole and lots of fun. And reading books and forums focused on gaining maximum strength can be motivating, while also maybe not being correctly focused for each of our goals in the sport. As mentioned before, for your weight you are probably “strong enough”. The question I wrestle with is will more strength be even better from a performance standpoint.

[ukaserex]

While I would defer to StrengthCoachWill, there are a ton of variables at play.

But - I would say this: given the recent published studies by Brad Schoenfeld, we now know that for hypertrophy, the more sets the better, but 3 sets is really the optimum, as beyond that does produce gains, but at a decreasing rate. If getting bigger is merely a by-product and not a goal, it's worth noting that we can get stronger, without getting bigger. And only 1 set is required - and that set would be one or two reps less than failure.

So, I would encourage you to do your reps and sets faster - and make the weight training more of a speed drill. Keeping good form, minimize your rest between sets and exercises. The intensity with the weights will serve you well in your rowing. Obviously - safety first, so keep your form - which can be tough when moving fast, but if it's an issue, drop weight until you can do them both fast and with good form.

But - that's just my thought. Opinions will vary.

[StrengthCoachWill]

I’m intrigued by the comment about “doing things that one can improve from”. Weight training can be its own rabbit hole and lots of fun. And reading books and forums focused on gaining maximum strength can be motivating, while also maybe not being correctly focused for each of our goals in the sport. As mentioned before, for your weight you are probably “strong enough”. The question I wrestle with is will more strength be even better from a performance standpoint.

G-dub, this is why I use low volume strength training and keep strength training very simple. It's easier to see what is and isn't working. What I meant in the context of this answer is not doing more work simply because you CAN do more work, but doing the work that gets you results. If your weights or reps are improving, or if your rowing times are improving, then training is working, and your whole focus should be on keeping it working. More doesn't necessarily mean better, and a lot of times, it means worse.

But, this assumes that being a better rower is your primary goal. If you're erging just to erg, and lifting just to lift, as part of a regimen of general physical activity, then you're burdened with the freedom of choice in doing whatever you want to do.

[hjs]

Other viewpoint is recovery, both exercises do need a good bit of recovery, the back gets a hard beating. This in combination with rowing is not easy. Some people, with backs of steel get away with it. But more don,t. I myself morebor less never found a good way to combine rowing and squats/deadlifts.
Likely I wanted to much, but still..

From that, recovery, standpoint either doing both during the same session, or lowering rowing volume could make sence.

In general, I find, not being able to train long enough continuesly is the biggest reason for not improving. Staying healthy is superimportant in that.

A squat, can also be done 1 legged, or... Wait for it... Do a legpress, both safe the back. Even deadlifts can be done 1 legged, again very much less demanding on the overall system.

[G-dub]

I’m digging the simple approach with low reps and sets along with incremental weight progressions. It’s fun to put another plate on the bar - even if it’s a 2.5# each side! You don’t get all “pumped up”, but it does make doing aerobic work the next morning or next day more doable. One thing learned is not pushing poundage up too fast and taking a longer approach to progression. I’m also going super easy on the aerobic work at the moment which makes it enjoyable and refreshing. I am finding I’m eating a little more and feeling bulkier (I think Mark E described the type as “stumpy”) but I usually feel that way this time of year anyway and/or eat for hibernation, so it’s not a bad time for building strength. The one thing that worries me is at the moment I’d prefer to get under a weight bar than banging out hard intervals on the erg! It’s quite easy to gravitate toward something other than hard intervals in the erg

[GJS]

Session A consists of an upper body pressing exercise, a squat, and then assistance work that includes Romanian deadlifts.

Session B consists of an upper body pressing exercise, a deadlift, and then assistance work that includes single-leg squats.

Are you loading those single leg squats (which I guess are rear elevated/Bulgarian split squats) pretty conservatively, Will?
You'll know that some of the athletes in Michael Boyle's charge are loading their split squats pretty close to their front squat numbers.

[StrengthCoachWill]

Session A consists of an upper body pressing exercise, a squat, and then assistance work that includes Romanian deadlifts.

Session B consists of an upper body pressing exercise, a deadlift, and then assistance work that includes single-leg squats.

Are you loading those single leg squats (which I guess are rear elevated/Bulgarian split squats) pretty conservatively, Will?
You'll know that some of the athletes in Michael Boyle's charge are loading their split squats pretty close to their front squat numbers.

Yes, pretty conservatively, although it depends where we're at with the training plan too. We tend to go higher reps and lower load in the off-seasons, then we'll go as low as sets of 5 with higher loads during in-season training. I interned with a D2 track and field team during undergrad and saw some sprinters using some really impressive weights on RFESS, which requires coordination and balance almost as much as it does strength. It's not something I'm concerned with for rowing, so we tend to load it with dumbbells held in each hand or one single dumbbell held in the goblet position.

[G-dub]

Will - I guess I don’t understand why high reps / low intensity in off season. I would have figured that would be time for strength training with heavier weight and low rep

[StrengthCoachWill]

Will - I guess I don’t understand why high reps / low intensity in off season. I would have figured that would be time for strength training with heavier weight and low rep

G-dub: my "Basics of Strength Training for Rowing" article lays all of this out in block-by-block detail, and then my "Strength Training for Masters Rowers: Periodization" article explains how to adjust it from the collegiate/junior spring 2k-focused schedule.

Is it OK for me to link my own articles directly here? I only just started posting here recently and don't want to seem like I'm spamming or overly self-promoting.

Basically, I use the Block Periodization system of strength training structure. We begin with off-season training to build the general muscular and aerobic foundation, and progress through the year to specific sport performance. Higher volume, lower intensity, higher variety training in the beginning to build a big foundation of strength, muscle, and fitness, then winnowing it down through the year to focus on peak power and race performance.

I'm happy to answer specific questions if you have them.

[G-dub]

Will - articles are posted on here all the time. And yes, I have questions. Stay with us here on this forum. It’s a small group but they get after it. Maybe we should start a strength training thread to keep things tidy. I’ll do that.

[StrengthCoachWill]

Will - articles are posted on here all the time. And yes, I have questions. Stay with us here on this forum. It’s a small group but they get after it. Maybe we should start a strength training thread to keep things tidy. I’ll do that.

Sure. Let's hold off on that for a bit. I'm jamming on a project right now and will have more time in a few weeks. I'll post a Q&A thread and we can just take it from there.

[hjs]

Sideways related, yesterday I tried 1legged, trapbar deadlifts. 60kg so not heavy. First I found that very tough, its very difficult from a stability standpoint, but mostly, it gave me enormous musclepain in my glutes. Can,t sit still for 5 seconds....
Wierd.