Sub 6:30 by October. Training advice

General discussion on Training. How to get better on your erg, how to use your erg to get better at another sport, or anything else about improving your abilities.
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JimS
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Sub 6:30 by October. Training advice

Post by JimS » March 3rd, 2019, 6:05 am

Hi folks,

New poster here. Gonna start a training log to post my stuff, and get advice on my training.

About me.

36, 117kg, 6'4". Have played rugby most of my adult life, but now retired or semi retired. I had a run of serious injuries over the last couple of years and have been coming back to fitness. (Serious concussion, torn collar bone, broken leg).

Goals

1. Stay fit. Train every day before work. Manage my mental health. Dont get injured. Avoid diabetes and a heart attack.
2. Lose a few kilos, look better naked.
3. Row a sub 6:30 2k by October in The Australian Indoor championships.

The last is more to help the first two. And would be to try and get a podium in the 30 to 39 age group.

Rowing history.

Probably been in a boat maybe twice, but have been on and off the rower for years. Finally bought one for myself in late 2016, but the injuries got in the way a bit.

Last 5 months have been pretty good, been sticking with it consistently. Mainly working on 5k, and that time has been coming down nicely most sessions.

Current Times

5k. 17:40.6
2k. 6.45.0

These are both PBs lifetime, done in the last week. Previous PBs before recent training period were 18:09 and 6.47.

Current Training Routine

I train at home, as well as the rower I have a couple of kettle bells, a yoga mat, and some parallette bars.
I train before work, and try to be done in 45 minutes including warm up.

Mon: 5k row. (Aim to improve time by 3 seconds each time)
Tues: Circuit (see below)
Wed: 2k row (Improve time by 2 seconds)
Thur: Circuit
Fri: 5k row ( as above)

Warm up always the same, about 20 minutes of mobility work and stretching (lots of post injury recovery stuff still)
Circuit is 3 rounds of 4 exercises, normally some sort of push up, squat, L-Sit, and pull or dumbbell curl.

Advice Needed

Feeling a bit run down, lower back been feeling fatigued, so thinking that linear progress every session is likely to tail off. Going to do a bit of a de-load this week, and then re-start the week after.

This week will keep the circuits, but do fairly slow 6k, broken in half, for the 3 rowing days.
Next week, thinking something like.

Mon - 5k Max
Tues - Circuit
Wed - 30 minutes slowish (?)
Thur - Circuit
Fri - Some kind of interval work? 3 x 1500?

what do we think? Am I on the right path?
Age: 37. Weight: 117kg. Height: 6'4"
1k: 3:14 2k: 6:28 5k: 17:12 30min: 8532m

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hjs
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Re: Sub 6:30 by October. Training advice

Post by hjs » March 3rd, 2019, 8:46 am

Rowing is a aerobic sport, you should do a lot more volume. Most sessions should be aerobic, 30 min or longer and relative easy. Rating should be low 18/22 this to build a strong stroke.

Given your build I would expected your 2k be relative faster, but irs its not, your 5 k is stronger.

Think you can improve a good bit if you up de meters a good bit.

Have a look at the pete plan thread, that could give ideas.

So no you are not on the right track :wink: kidding, but true. Toprowers make 150/250 km per week often to give you an idea. Fot us 50/60km per is doable and would be enough to improve a good bit.

Dangerscouse
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Re: Sub 6:30 by October. Training advice

Post by Dangerscouse » March 3rd, 2019, 9:31 am

I think you need to make sure that you stay patient and build slowly. Increasing your 5k by 3 seconds every time is a VERY big challenge.

New PBs will become a lot harder to come by as you reach your potential. I'd be looking to increase by 0.3 secs as a more sustainable target and only trying to test yourself every two or three weeks.

As Henry says more volume with steady state sessions will be beneficial.
47 HWT; 6' 4"; 1k= 3:09; 2k= 6:36; 5k= 17:24; 6k= 20:47; 10k= 35:46 30mins= 8,428m 60mins= 16,461m HM= 1:16.47; FM= 2:44:04; 50k= 3:16:09; 100k= 7:52:44; 12hrs = 153km

"You reap what you row"

Instagram: stuwenman

JMac
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Re: Sub 6:30 by October. Training advice

Post by JMac » March 3rd, 2019, 11:45 am

Pete plan helped me improve my 2k.

We're similar in age and build, but I'm probably a better sprinter and your cardio is definitely better than mine.

I hope to go under 6:30 the next time I feel like training for 2k.
37 | 6'6" | 130kg

100m: 13.6 | 500m: 1:17.8 | 2k: 6:29 | 5k: 18:07 | 10k: 37:45

gooseflight
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Re: Sub 6:30 by October. Training advice

Post by gooseflight » March 3rd, 2019, 12:51 pm

Certainly do-able. You need to find 45 watts, which I don't think will be difficult for you. If your focus is a 6:30 2K and you are planning to train five days a week I would ditch the other stuff and concentrate on erging. Given your build I would be looking at 30R20 (30 mins at 20 spm) as a core weekly session.

As hjs says take a look at the Pete Plan or the Interactive Plan, not necessarily as something to follow but to see the mix of sessions most likely to bring about improvement.

It's hard to know where you are on your personal potential curve but It's unlikely that you're going to improve your 2K rowing just an additional ~18K a week. [Edited after reading your post properly!]

In my opinion, with the right approach and mileage, 6:30 could come a good bit sooner than October.
Roy Walter
M55 | 185cm | 90kg | Journeyman Erger
PBs (2004): 6:38 (2K) | 5:22.9 (mile) | 17:39.6 (5K) | 8323 (30 mins) | 36:52 (10K) | 1:22:03 (HM '05)

JimS
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Re: Sub 6:30 by October. Training advice

Post by JimS » March 3rd, 2019, 3:40 pm

Hi folks.

Thanks for the quick feedback!

A few things.

1. I've been doing the 5k twice a week for months. 2k just once per week for the last few weeks, so probably could go significantly faster than 1.45 if i built up to it over a few weeks.

2. I saw the Pete plan. Im going to move more towarss that but trying not to overcomplicate. My experience from other training suggests that you keep doing simple linear training while it works, then add in variation slowly as needed.

3. Similar to above. I thought I would get the feedback about more aerobic stuff. What I'm doing seems to be working? What am I missing? Is it just the risk of over training? Is the improvement not legitimate progress but mostly a mix of a) regaining previous fitness and b) improving race technique?

4. Want to stick to 3 times per week. I like the other stuff for health and strength. The rowing is one of three goals, and not the most important.

5. I'm doing that forum thing where I ask for advice and then spend the rest of the time ignoring it... arent I?
Age: 37. Weight: 117kg. Height: 6'4"
1k: 3:14 2k: 6:28 5k: 17:12 30min: 8532m

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hjs
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Re: Sub 6:30 by October. Training advice

Post by hjs » March 3rd, 2019, 3:49 pm

Fair enough.

Re overtraining. Aerobic training should be done at a level that is not taxing. Thats also why you can train so much. If you faster its not pure aerobic.

If you train 3 tines and at the current volume ignore the above, that can certainly work, but nake the sessions count. Won,t be optimal, but thats not your goal.

JimS
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Re: Sub 6:30 by October. Training advice

Post by JimS » March 4th, 2019, 3:55 am

Today. Did 6.5k, broken in half with a 3 minute rest. 1.52 pace.

Aiming to do 7.5 and 8k Wednesday and Friday as part of deload week.

Next week. Thinking something like.

Mon: 5k max.
Tues: Circuit.
Wed: 8k med pace.
Thursday: circuit.
Friday. 3 x 1500 at 2k pace. 5 minutes rest.

Have taken the feedback around volume. Depending on my morning schedule. Will try and get extra ks in throughout the week.
Age: 37. Weight: 117kg. Height: 6'4"
1k: 3:14 2k: 6:28 5k: 17:12 30min: 8532m

gooseflight
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Re: Sub 6:30 by October. Training advice

Post by gooseflight » March 4th, 2019, 4:19 am

JimS wrote:
March 3rd, 2019, 3:40 pm
... Is the improvement not legitimate progress but mostly a mix of a) regaining previous fitness and b) improving race technique?
Progress is progress. Likely but no way to know when it stops. Hopefully around 6:29 :)
Roy Walter
M55 | 185cm | 90kg | Journeyman Erger
PBs (2004): 6:38 (2K) | 5:22.9 (mile) | 17:39.6 (5K) | 8323 (30 mins) | 36:52 (10K) | 1:22:03 (HM '05)

JimS
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Re: Sub 6:30 by October. Training advice

Post by JimS » March 4th, 2019, 5:52 am

Fair! I'm tempted to keep trying twice per week, but i also know when to listen to my body, and my body says it's too much.
Age: 37. Weight: 117kg. Height: 6'4"
1k: 3:14 2k: 6:28 5k: 17:12 30min: 8532m

lindsayh
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Re: Sub 6:30 by October. Training advice

Post by lindsayh » March 4th, 2019, 6:27 am

JimS wrote:
March 3rd, 2019, 6:05 am
3. Row a sub 6:30 2k by October in The Australian Indoor championships.
what do we think? Am I on the right path?
Jim if you are in Sydney then may be able to help. (There are some races here in Sydney that may help you prepare too.)
Send me a PM if you like.
Lindsay
69yo 93kg
Sydney Australia
Forum Flyer
PBs (65y+) 1 min 349m, 500m 1:29.8, 1k 3:11.7 2k 6:47.4, 5km 18:07.9, 30' 7928m, 10k 37:57.2, 60' 15368m

KeithT
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Re: Sub 6:30 by October. Training advice

Post by KeithT » March 4th, 2019, 10:04 am

I had a similar goal last year which I recently reached going from a 6:43 to a 6:30 in a years time with more focus on the goal in the last 6 months. I at first was training a lot like you were and I was making improvements but I really saw the biggest improvements and changes when I started doing more aerobic sessions. There really is no substitute for it - mixing it in with some hard interval training made the biggest difference. I did this as a 50 year old so I think your goal is definitely achievable but as others suggested you need to do some steady state work.
52 yo, 6'3" 200#
PBs (all since turning 50):
1 min - 376m, 500m - 1:21.3, 1K - 2:57.2, 4 min - 1265m, 2K - 6:29.4, 5K - 17:23, 30 min - 8366m, 10K - 35:54, 60 min - 16110, HM - 1:19:19, FM - 2:47:46

ukaserex
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Re: Sub 6:30 by October. Training advice

Post by ukaserex » March 4th, 2019, 2:56 pm

hjs wrote:
March 3rd, 2019, 8:46 am
Rowing is a aerobic sport, you should do a lot more volume. Most sessions should be aerobic, 30 min or longer and relative easy. Rating should be low 18/22 this to build a strong stroke.

Given your build I would expected your 2k be relative faster, but irs its not, your 5 k is stronger.

Think you can improve a good bit if you up de meters a good bit.

Have a look at the pete plan thread, that could give ideas.

So no you are not on the right track :wink: kidding, but true. Toprowers make 150/250 km per week often to give you an idea. Fot us 50/60km per is doable and would be enough to improve a good bit.
I don't know why, but whenever I read what you write, it seems to have a clear ring of simple truth. The volume you speak of - 150-250 km per week...
that just seems really daunting. I have been just short of killing myself just to get in about 60-70km a week. It's so much time in that seat, my hind end goes rather numb.

There has to be more to it than that, right? With that kind of volume, most of the rowing would have to almost certainly be what I would call "low-intensity-steady-state", focused on a rhythm, rather than pushing for any speed. I just don't see how anyone could put that kind of volume in if it weren't really slow going.

At the risk of being thought a complete idiot (which may not be far from the truth) - why is so much volume required for an increase in speed? Is it the lactate threshold? Something mental? What is it that is happening during the longer, yet easier rows, that doesn't happen in...let's say, 10 intervals of 1k with a decreasing split? (vs a 20k low-intensity row)?
100M - 16.1 1 Min - 370 500M - 1:25.1 1k - 3:10.2 4:00 - 1216 2k 6:37.0 5k 17:58.8 6k - 21:54.1 30 Min. - 8130 10k - 37:49.7 60:00 - 15604
1/2 Marathon 1:28:44.3 Marathon 2:59:36

5'10"
215 lbs
53 years old

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hjs
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Re: Sub 6:30 by October. Training advice

Post by hjs » March 4th, 2019, 3:39 pm

ukaserex wrote:
March 4th, 2019, 2:56 pm
hjs wrote:
March 3rd, 2019, 8:46 am
Rowing is a aerobic sport, you should do a lot more volume. Most sessions should be aerobic, 30 min or longer and relative easy. Rating should be low 18/22 this to build a strong stroke.

Given your build I would expected your 2k be relative faster, but irs its not, your 5 k is stronger.

Think you can improve a good bit if you up de meters a good bit.

Have a look at the pete plan thread, that could give ideas.

So no you are not on the right track :wink: kidding, but true. Toprowers make 150/250 km per week often to give you an idea. Fot us 50/60km per is doable and would be enough to improve a good bit.
I don't know why, but whenever I read what you write, it seems to have a clear ring of simple truth. The volume you speak of - 150-250 km per week...
that just seems really daunting. I have been just short of killing myself just to get in about 60-70km a week. It's so much time in that seat, my hind end goes rather numb.

There has to be more to it than that, right? With that kind of volume, most of the rowing would have to almost certainly be what I would call "low-intensity-steady-state", focused on a rhythm, rather than pushing for any speed. I just don't see how anyone could put that kind of volume in if it weren't really slow going.

At the risk of being thought a complete idiot (which may not be far from the truth) - why is so much volume required for an increase in speed? Is it the lactate threshold? Something mental? What is it that is happening during the longer, yet easier rows, that doesn't happen in...let's say, 10 intervals of 1k with a decreasing split? (vs a 20k low-intensity row)?
That volume is needed for the last 5%, pure aerobic training is purely focussed on being able te recrute as much as possible O2, it also converts the hybride muscle fibers to slow twitch. So it does not increese speed, but it make us as aerobic as possible.
Look at cycling, swimming, cross country ski. All very high volume.
And yes, its slow, but their slow is still fast for us mortals. I have guys do 1 hour strict Ut2 at 1.45 rate 20, so thats with no lactic acid build up. But those guys pull 15min. 5k s and 4x 2k sub6, on 5 min rest.

200km, would be 13/14 hours a week, so thats not even that much. And think about it, if you would go strictly ut2, had enough time and could build it up, you could do a lot more.
If you look at crossfit like types, some get to around 6 min, but the step to olympic rowing simply needs you to be extremely fit.

If you start interval work, which ofcourse is needed around race season, you do the anaerobic system, but that will decrease aerobic fitness at the same time. To fully develope aerobic fitness its all training the slow muscle fibers, once you start producing lactic acid, the fast fibers start working. Not what you want.

ukaserex
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Re: Sub 6:30 by October. Training advice

Post by ukaserex » March 4th, 2019, 3:48 pm

hjs wrote:
March 4th, 2019, 3:39 pm

If you start interval work, which ofcourse is needed around race season, you do the anaerobic system, but that will decrease aerobic fitness at the same time. To fully develope aerobic fitness its all training the slow muscle fibers, once you start producing lactic acid, the fast fibers start working. Not what you want.
My brain just exploded.
I somehow understand the need for intervals to increase speed. But..I was unaware that intervals decrease aerobic fitness. So, I thank you for taking the time to reply.
100M - 16.1 1 Min - 370 500M - 1:25.1 1k - 3:10.2 4:00 - 1216 2k 6:37.0 5k 17:58.8 6k - 21:54.1 30 Min. - 8130 10k - 37:49.7 60:00 - 15604
1/2 Marathon 1:28:44.3 Marathon 2:59:36

5'10"
215 lbs
53 years old

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