Training Volume

General discussion on Training. How to get better on your erg, how to use your erg to get better at another sport, or anything else about improving your abilities.
Tenshuu
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Posts: 205
Joined: May 9th, 2016, 12:25 am
Location: Maine, USA

Re: Training Volume

Post by Tenshuu » April 1st, 2019, 8:50 pm

30, 2 days ago. Gotta get on my signature update
30M 5'7" 190LBs

MartinSH4321
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Posts: 519
Joined: October 10th, 2018, 6:43 am

Re: Training Volume

Post by MartinSH4321 » April 2nd, 2019, 1:57 am

Hi Keith,
As I am a relatively newbie in rowing I'm not having this sort of problem right now, but in a few months, maybe a year, I'll propably be in the same position as you and I have also thought about how to deal with it.
Years ago I did weight training for 5-6 days per week, got stronger and stronger, but finally hit a plateau. I adapted my training in different ways but wasn't able to increase weights, and I always refused to use doping, so I saw no way to get better which was very frustating.
Finally I approached the problem by setting another goal: I want to hold my strength with minimum effort and do another sport (boxing).
To cut a long story short:
I found out that HIT (High Intensity Training, also called Heavy Duty, don't know if you herad of it) worked great for me. I only trained 2 times per week for about 30min including warm up and was able to stay as strong. The goal is to only do one max effort set, pretty slow, sometimes including a super set with reduced weight. The challenge is to work till "muscle failure" (hope this is correct :-) ), otherwise it won't work. So my training looked like (you can also goolge for HIT or Mike Mentzer Heavy Duty):
Day 1:
Chest: 1x benchpress+Superset, Pull-overs/Butterfly, Dips
Triceps: pushdowns
Legs: Squats, sitting Leg curl + Superset
Day 2:
Shoulder: barbell shoulder press, lateral raises
Back: Deadlift, barbell rows + Superset, chin-ups
Biceps: curls

I don't know if this sort of training is transferable for CF (never tried it) or if normal weight training is an alternative for you. As you said, CF is hard and the chance of injury is high. I never injured myself with HIT. As you're familiar with training till pain is almost unbearable I think HIT would work for you.
My future plan is to do 1-2x HIT, followed by SS sessions, and 5-6 total rowing sessions per week.
Martin, 1983, Austria, 186cm / 100Kg (6ft1/220lb)
LP: 1:09,7, 100m: 14,7, 1': 375m, 500m: 1:22,2
1k: 3:05 2k: 6:46, 5k: 18:21, 30': 8.023m, 10k: 37:41,
60': 15.661m, HM: 1:25:40
rowing since 2018-06, 2mm in Jul19

Tenshuu
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Posts: 205
Joined: May 9th, 2016, 12:25 am
Location: Maine, USA

Re: Training Volume

Post by Tenshuu » April 2nd, 2019, 7:28 am

Finally I approached the problem by setting another goal: I want to hold my strength with minimum effort and do another sport (boxing).
I think this is the closest to the best of both worlds. Get close to a strength goal, find comfort in that progress, and maintain while improving your erg.

I think any reversed strength gains could be a sign that you're ready to move back into strength training again - the change to maintenance mode and focus elsewhere could break the plateau you've previously hit.
30M 5'7" 190LBs

KeithT
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Joined: February 5th, 2018, 12:41 pm

Re: Training Volume

Post by KeithT » April 2nd, 2019, 9:24 am

ukaserex wrote:
April 1st, 2019, 6:20 pm
<sniff> Keith, Is it wrong that I looked your times and wished I had that extra 5 inches of height?

Crossfit is just plain hard, but the WODs are too short (at least 95% of them) to do you much good aerobically. If I were you - and I'm too short to be you, but I'm a couple years older, with similar row times and I also "attempt" to do Crossfit - I would recognize that aerobic conditioning takes about 6 good weeks. Strength takes years.

The worst thing about most Crossfit workouts is they don't seem to give two hoots about recovery from the prior day's WOD. They seem to feel if a construction worker can carry a stack of boards or bricks every day, then we should be able to power snatch or deadlift or devil press whatever the programmer throws our way. After 40 years old for most guys, and over 50 for even more of us, that recovery time is critically important to see gains. At least, that's what "They" say.

What I do is Crossfit on Tuesday and Friday. The days after Crossfit,(Wednesday & Saturday) I'll do steady state rows that vary with rate and pace, and try to get in at least 30 minutes of them, twice a day. Once in the wee hours of the AM, and once after work, but before supper.

On Monday's and Thursdays, I do the speed work - like the 8 reps of 500M per the Pete's Plan, or the 5 sets of 1500m, or 3x 2k at my 2k PR+3,+4, +5 with 3:00 rest in between. Or something crazy like "Death by 10 meters" and set the rower up for 1:00 intervals with no rest - start at 150 meters per minute and work up to as many minutes as I can, increasing 10 meters each minute. By 16 minutes in, I'm having to get 300 meters per minute, which isn't that easy when your winded and wiped out.

Sunday will be an "active recovery" day, where I'll work on things I couldn't get to during the week, like Ring Muscle-ups (which I still can't do) and long bike rides.

You just have to find your balance.
Yes! When I mentioned CF was hard for a person my age I think the biggest issue is recovery by far. I can keep up or beat the young guys at my gym on many occassions and I can do all the movements (including ring muscle ups) but then I cant do it all out again the next day like they can. So often I work rowing in between CF to try and find my balance and I also like to do plain old weightlifting. My strength is good overall but I just found I was losing some of it when I was doing more rowing - it is all relative though as I am still strong in general - I still bench press over 300 pounds and squat and deadlift 400/500.

I think my bigger fear is still that I wont continue to improve in rowing unless I dedicate the time to it. I originally thought I could keep making gains with rowing 3 days a week but I don't really think that will work now especially as I need to continue to increase my aerobic capacity.

With all the feedback on here I am going to try some tweaks but its clear to me I need more rowing if I want to keep making gains with it.
51 yo, 6'3" 207#
PBs (all since turning 50):
1 min - 373m, 500m - 1:23.2, 1K - 2:59.8, 4 min - 1265m, 2K - 6:29.9, 5K - 17:27, 30 min - 8277m, 10K - 36:30, 60 min - 16036, HM - 1:20:22

KeithT
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Posts: 545
Joined: February 5th, 2018, 12:41 pm

Re: Training Volume

Post by KeithT » April 2nd, 2019, 9:37 am

MartinSH4321 wrote:
April 2nd, 2019, 1:57 am
Hi Keith,
As I am a relatively newbie in rowing I'm not having this sort of problem right now, but in a few months, maybe a year, I'll propably be in the same position as you and I have also thought about how to deal with it.
Years ago I did weight training for 5-6 days per week, got stronger and stronger, but finally hit a plateau. I adapted my training in different ways but wasn't able to increase weights, and I always refused to use doping, so I saw no way to get better which was very frustating.
Finally I approached the problem by setting another goal: I want to hold my strength with minimum effort and do another sport (boxing).
To cut a long story short:
I found out that HIT (High Intensity Training, also called Heavy Duty, don't know if you herad of it) worked great for me. I only trained 2 times per week for about 30min including warm up and was able to stay as strong. The goal is to only do one max effort set, pretty slow, sometimes including a super set with reduced weight. The challenge is to work till "muscle failure" (hope this is correct :-) ), otherwise it won't work. So my training looked like (you can also goolge for HIT or Mike Mentzer Heavy Duty):
Day 1:
Chest: 1x benchpress+Superset, Pull-overs/Butterfly, Dips
Triceps: pushdowns
Legs: Squats, sitting Leg curl + Superset
Day 2:
Shoulder: barbell shoulder press, lateral raises
Back: Deadlift, barbell rows + Superset, chin-ups
Biceps: curls

I don't know if this sort of training is transferable for CF (never tried it) or if normal weight training is an alternative for you. As you said, CF is hard and the chance of injury is high. I never injured myself with HIT. As you're familiar with training till pain is almost unbearable I think HIT would work for you.
My future plan is to do 1-2x HIT, followed by SS sessions, and 5-6 total rowing sessions per week.
I am vey familiar with Mike Mentzer and also others who followed similar training (Dorian Yates) - and when I weightlift (not CF weightlifting) I tend to do less sets and higher intensity and have found that works well for me. When I was young I followed the high volume of weight training and worked each body part twice a week, later I switched to each body part once a week and way less sets.

I am very confident that I can do some HIIT weight training and keep strength while doing more rowing but then I have to back off CrossFit as to stay decent with it you have to be efficient in so many movements. I will say and you all will appreciate this that rowing fitness translates well to CF capacity as there are many workouts where I will have the most reps, fastest time in my gym and its not because I am stronger or better at a movement but because I can keep going when others get tired - once you know the pain and how to deal with it after doing 2ks and such you can push thru a lot of different workouts.

Anyway, I do advocate the less is more aspect of weights but then for rowing it seems the opposite - I need to do more to keep getting better.
51 yo, 6'3" 207#
PBs (all since turning 50):
1 min - 373m, 500m - 1:23.2, 1K - 2:59.8, 4 min - 1265m, 2K - 6:29.9, 5K - 17:27, 30 min - 8277m, 10K - 36:30, 60 min - 16036, HM - 1:20:22

ukaserex
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Posts: 112
Joined: November 3rd, 2018, 12:37 pm

Re: Training Volume

Post by ukaserex » April 3rd, 2019, 11:07 am

I completely agree about the ability to "power through" difficult workouts when others are getting tired.

So many different movements in Crossfit, but still, the WODs are too short to add much cardio base. They definitely make lighter weights a lot heavier with the fatigue that sets in, but it's a rare crossfitter that can do a 2k sub 7:00. They just don't have the endurance. (most of them)
100M - 16.1 1 Min - 370 500M - 1:25.1 1k - 3:10.2 4:00 - 1216 2k 6:37.0 5k 17:58.8 6k - 21:54.1 30 Min. - 8130 10k - 37:49.7

5'10"
205 lbs
52 years old

H2O
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Joined: March 18th, 2006, 9:51 am
Location: Frankfurt, GER
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Re: Training Volume

Post by H2O » April 4th, 2019, 4:36 pm

You cannot excel at all distances, even if you were a rowing specialist. Your 500m and 1K are excellent
so why not work on these and make them better still.
Crossfit training probably helps you most at these distances also.

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