30:00 for distance, strategy.

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PhilS1961
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30:00 for distance, strategy.

Post by PhilS1961 » May 7th, 2019, 3:22 pm

As it says in the subject, can the wise folks on here suggest some strategies?
I'm 57, 6'2" and a beginner. My current 30:00 is 7638m, that was about 6 weeks ago and since then I've improved my 2K by 20s to 7:19,3. Beginner's gains!

My first 30:00 effort looked like this:

Time Meters Pace Watts Cal/Hr S/M
30:00.0 7,638m 1:57.8 214 1036 23
6:00.0 1,526m 1:57.9 213 1033 24
12:00.0 1,517m 1:58.6 210 1021 23
18:00.0 1,523m 1:58.1 212 1029 23
24:00.0 1,521m 1:58.3 211 1026 23
30:00.0 1,551m 1:56.0 224 1070 24

So, basically I held about 1:58 and gave it the beans in the last few minutes.

I'd really like to average 1:56 to get 7750. My endurance is a bit iffy so 8k is way out of reach at the moment.

Are there any "accepted" strategies for the 30:00 other than "suffer and hold the damn split"? :-D

Phil
57 years old
6'2 (188)
211 lbs (96kg)
Wingspan 194 cm
Been erging since Jan 2019.
1k=3:32.3
2k=7:19.3 (April 16 2019)
30:00 = 7638 (March 15 2019)

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hjs
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Re: 30:00 for distance, strategy.

Post by hjs » May 7th, 2019, 5:27 pm

Pacing was just right, not much to gain there.

What will help is specific training, once a week hard intervals 4x2k, 5x 1500, 3,2.5,2 k, around 5k pace, rest 5 min will help.

Also rating a bit higher could be helpfull.
For my training see twitter @Hjsrowing

mdpfirrman
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Re: 30:00 for distance, strategy.

Post by mdpfirrman » May 7th, 2019, 6:47 pm

There is a 5K Pete Plan. Google it. I was doing it until I hurt my back in Fall of last year and again in January :roll:

It's great training for longer distance pieces. I was doing it to force myself to endure pain on a bit of longer pieces. Though it's geared toward a 5K improvement, it's also great training for 30 minutes. I'm recovering from the back injury but my paces are way off. But I'm doing a lot of these workouts on the Assault bike still.

Anything 5K and up is about lactic acid tolerance and clearance as well as mental and aerobic conditioning. I think that there's something innately masochistic about rowers who can do these longer hard pieces all the time. I'm training myself not to dread longer pieces as much.
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Mike Pfirrman
53 Yrs old, 5' 10" / 185 lbs (177cm/84kg)

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Carl Watts
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Re: 30:00 for distance, strategy.

Post by Carl Watts » May 7th, 2019, 6:51 pm

Yeah sorry the best strategy is to just hold the target splits. Its pure math, thats the "Least" amount of effort or power required.

Very good result based on your age etc. quite impressive. Try rating up or down slightly and see if that makes a difference.

Get a heartrate monitor and see if the rating makes a difference.

Whats the actual Drag factor on the monitor ? Beginners tend to have it to high.
Carl Watts.
Age:52 Weight: 104kg Height:183cm
Concept 2 Monitor Service Technician & indoor rower.
http://log.concept2.com/profile/863525/log

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Ombrax
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Re: 30:00 for distance, strategy.

Post by Ombrax » May 7th, 2019, 6:52 pm

PhilS1961 wrote:
May 7th, 2019, 3:22 pm
Are there any "accepted" strategies for the 30:00 other than "suffer and hold the damn split"? :-D
A totally random comment that won't help you, but I'll say it just the same:

I despise timed pieces because pushing harder doesn't make the end arrive any faster. I prefer going for distance because throughout the piece, but especially for the final sprint, I can motivate myself by thinking that the harder I push the sooner the pain will be over. That does no good when you're on the clock, and the countdown is just as slow whether you're loafing or feel like you're about to die.

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Carl Watts
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Re: 30:00 for distance, strategy.

Post by Carl Watts » May 7th, 2019, 7:15 pm

No point sprinting the finish in the 30 minutes, it has hardly any effect on the average pace for the row, its just to long a row.

Ideally you have nothing left to sprint and can only just manage the target pace to the finish line, that is the best time your going to get.

So the only thing harder than maintaining that target split is choosing it to start with. Going too fast is pretty fatal, the last several minutes are really tough as it is and if you crash and have to handle down or blow out to like 2:30 pace its all over.

If your able to sprint the finish you should have gone fractionally faster from the start.
Carl Watts.
Age:52 Weight: 104kg Height:183cm
Concept 2 Monitor Service Technician & indoor rower.
http://log.concept2.com/profile/863525/log

jamesg
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Re: 30:00 for distance, strategy.

Post by jamesg » May 8th, 2019, 12:43 am

The half hour is usually done at rate 20. It's not a race, but an essential part of training. The purpose and strategy is to train endurance and technique, so it doesn't matter much what results we get so long as we learn from them.

The results will appear in 2k tests. Yours is good as a beginner. In a year's time it will be a lot better. At 6'2 57 I'd guess you can improve your stroke a little, as measured by Watts/Rating; endurance is a long game but of itself has no limit.
78y, 188cm, 87kg, MHR 155. Last 2k (24 May 19) 8.46.6@22

Dino
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Re: 30:00 for distance, strategy.

Post by Dino » May 8th, 2019, 2:04 am

To get over 7600 in 3 months and for a first go is very good going! as is 7:19 for 2k starting from January. Far better than me!

Are you doing any longer duration workouts during the week? To improve endurance / base fitness you could introduce one or two longer pieces at steady state, e.g. 10k at rate 20 at a pace where you can still talk to someone. The intervals suggested by hjs also a good idea.

For the actual 30m test and setting a PB, sitting at a level target pace to beat previous is quite difficult IMO unless you are quite experienced. To guage exactly the pace you need on a given day and arrive at 30m with no more to give I find hard. I prefer to set an initial pace that will give projected distance just below your previous PB. I get to this pace quickly then settle down into a lowish rating at this for 20 mins. I then start to tweak up the rate and pace. With 1000m to go I ramp up again, then 400m nearly max, then last 20 strokes all out. I will then be absolutely dead at the end gasping for breath! Not for everyone, but I prefer this negative split approach. I also set myself rules like never drop the pace once gone up! As you get more experienced then I think you can start to home in on a more level target pace for a sustained effort. Just how I have approached it, right or wrong!
51 HWT M - age group verified percentiles based on 2019 season, long term target to get above 75% for all (although maybe not the FM!)
500m (63rd), 1k (64th), 2k (73rd), 5k (83rd), 30m (84th), 10k (82nd), 60m (76th), HM (85th), FM (72nd)

Dino
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Re: 30:00 for distance, strategy.

Post by Dino » May 8th, 2019, 2:06 am

To get over 7600 in 3 months and for a first go is very good going! as is 7:19 for 2k starting from January. Far better than me!

Are you doing any longer duration workouts during the week? To improve endurance / base fitness you could introduce one or two longer pieces at steady state, e.g. 10k at rate 20 at a pace where you can still talk to someone. The intervals suggested by hjs also a good idea.

For the actual 30m test and setting a PB, sitting at a level target pace to beat previous is quite difficult IMO unless you are quite experienced. To guage exactly the pace you need on a given day and arrive at 30m with no more to give I find hard. I prefer to set an initial pace that will give projected distance just below your previous PB. I get to this pace quickly then settle down into a lowish rating at this for 20 mins. I then start to tweak up the rate and pace. With 1000m to go I ramp up again, then 400m nearly max, then last 20 strokes all out. I will then be absolutely dead at the end gasping for breath! Not for everyone, but I prefer this negative split approach. I also set myself rules like never drop the pace once gone up! As you get more experienced then I think you can start to home in on a more level target pace for a sustained effort. Just how I have approached it, right or wrong!
51 HWT M - age group verified percentiles based on 2019 season, long term target to get above 75% for all (although maybe not the FM!)
500m (63rd), 1k (64th), 2k (73rd), 5k (83rd), 30m (84th), 10k (82nd), 60m (76th), HM (85th), FM (72nd)

PhilS1961
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Re: 30:00 for distance, strategy.

Post by PhilS1961 » May 8th, 2019, 2:51 am

Carl Watts wrote:
May 7th, 2019, 6:51 pm
Yeah sorry the best strategy is to just hold the target splits. Its pure math, thats the "Least" amount of effort or power required.

Very good result based on your age etc. quite impressive. Try rating up or down slightly and see if that makes a difference.

Get a heartrate monitor and see if the rating makes a difference.

Whats the actual Drag factor on the monitor ? Beginners tend to have it to high.
130 :) I feel that works well for me. Did a UT" at 125 yesterday as an experiment and I didn't like it.
57 years old
6'2 (188)
211 lbs (96kg)
Wingspan 194 cm
Been erging since Jan 2019.
1k=3:32.3
2k=7:19.3 (April 16 2019)
30:00 = 7638 (March 15 2019)

PhilS1961
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Posts: 23
Joined: February 21st, 2019, 12:17 pm

Re: 30:00 for distance, strategy.

Post by PhilS1961 » May 8th, 2019, 4:15 am

hjs wrote:
May 7th, 2019, 5:27 pm
Pacing was just right, not much to gain there.

What will help is specific training, once a week hard intervals 4x2k, 5x 1500, 3,2.5,2 k, around 5k pace, rest 5 min will help.

Also rating a bit higher could be helpfull.
My training is very 2k focused right now. My original goal for June was 7:20 and sub 7 for the year. But I'm now going for 7:10 by the middle of June, my 58th birthday :)

Rating is my "weakness" my rate for my 2k PB was 27. Anything over feels "rushed".
57 years old
6'2 (188)
211 lbs (96kg)
Wingspan 194 cm
Been erging since Jan 2019.
1k=3:32.3
2k=7:19.3 (April 16 2019)
30:00 = 7638 (March 15 2019)

PhilS1961
Paddler
Posts: 23
Joined: February 21st, 2019, 12:17 pm

Re: 30:00 for distance, strategy.

Post by PhilS1961 » May 8th, 2019, 4:20 am

jamesg wrote:
May 8th, 2019, 12:43 am
The half hour is usually done at rate 20. It's not a race, but an essential part of training. The purpose and strategy is to train endurance and technique, so it doesn't matter much what results we get so long as we learn from them.

The results will appear in 2k tests. Yours is good as a beginner. In a year's time it will be a lot better. At 6'2 57 I'd guess you can improve your stroke a little, as measured by Watts/Rating; endurance is a long game but of itself has no limit.
Looking at my power curve my power output is even and long with no "bell curve" to speak of. Hopefully that will come with time.

I'm looking at the 30:00 as I finished last season in 2nd place in my AG here in Sweden and a 7750 would beat my nearest "rival's" best from last season :) His PR is 8124 from 2017 and I'm a long way from that.

I do UT2 40 minute pieces at 18 SR and I "love" that :-)
57 years old
6'2 (188)
211 lbs (96kg)
Wingspan 194 cm
Been erging since Jan 2019.
1k=3:32.3
2k=7:19.3 (April 16 2019)
30:00 = 7638 (March 15 2019)

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hjs
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Location: Amstelveen the netherlands
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Re: 30:00 for distance, strategy.

Post by hjs » May 8th, 2019, 4:46 am

PhilS1961 wrote:
May 8th, 2019, 4:15 am
hjs wrote:
May 7th, 2019, 5:27 pm
Pacing was just right, not much to gain there.

What will help is specific training, once a week hard intervals 4x2k, 5x 1500, 3,2.5,2 k, around 5k pace, rest 5 min will help.

Also rating a bit higher could be helpfull.
My training is very 2k focused right now. My original goal for June was 7:20 and sub 7 for the year. But I'm now going for 7:10 by the middle of June, my 58th birthday :)

Rating is my "weakness" my rate for my 2k PB was 27. Anything over feels "rushed".
Yes, but even at this point, both should go up.

For your current paces and given your height, rating much higher, should feel rushed, it will come up when you get fitter.

Building a stronger stroke will likely help you most at this point. This means doing longer at lower ratings mostly, but don,t this to slow. For people who are relative fast with not great aerobic base, going slower is ok, but for a guy like you those sessions, should not be easy. It should be work, not just recovery.

Patience and meters will get you there.
For my training see twitter @Hjsrowing

Dangerscouse
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Re: 30:00 for distance, strategy.

Post by Dangerscouse » May 8th, 2019, 9:22 am

I think everyone has covered everything but stay patient and just keep mentally reinforcing your confidence with lots of metres and a variety of sessions.

There aren't any short cuts to erg fitness...it just takes time, sweat and swearing.
45 HWT; 6' 4"; Liverpool 1k= 3:09; 2k= 6:36; 5k= 17:27; 6k= 21:23; 10k= 36:21 30mins= 8,356m 60mins= 16,317m HM= 1:18:40; FM= 2:49:39; 50k= 3:28:18; 100k= 7:52:44; 12hrs = 153km

"You reap what you Row"

Instagram: stuwenman

KeithT
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Re: 30:00 for distance, strategy.

Post by KeithT » May 8th, 2019, 11:51 am

All the correct answers have been given - the only thing I might add (and others might disagree with me but) on longer rows especially the timed ones (30 minute/60 minute) I like to throw in some "Power Strokes" to perhaps drop the overall average by a tenth or so and also to sort of wake myself up and to me mentally it makes the time go by quicker. Nothing too crazy but lets say my overall goal pace was 1:49 and I am settled in on that pace but overall average is 1:49.2 - I might do 5-10 harder pulls every 500M or 1000M to get the average down and change things up. I know ideally the more even the pacing the better but I seem to recover from these little burst just fine and its mentally good for me.
51 yo, 6'3" 205#
PBs (all since turning 50):
1 min - 372m, 500m - 1:23.2, 1K - 2:59.8, 4 min - 1265m, 2K - 6:29.9, 5K - 17:27, 30 min - 8277m, 10K - 36:30, 60 min - 16036, HM - 1:20:48

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